Deposition of Rudy Hermann Guede
Transcript of Interrogation Of Mr. Rudy Hermann Guede
Criminal Proceedings n. 9066/07 r.g.n.r. Procura della Repubblica di Perugia of 26 March 2008
At the Procura della Repubblica di Perugia
Present: Prosecutor Dr. Giuliano Mignini Giacinto Profazio – Head of Flying Squad, Perugia Police Station Monica Napoleoni – Chief Inspector – Perugia Police Station Lorena Zugarini – Assistant Chief Flying Squad Perugia Police Station Danilo Paciotti – Corporal Criminal Investigation Department of Perugia The deposition is transcribed in 115 pages numbered from page 1 to page 115 [in original Italian version].| Pros. Mignini: | On 26 March 2008 at 10:35 in Perugia at the Capanne district prison of Perugia, before the Prosecutor Dr. Giuliano Mignini, aided in transcribing of the deposition by Corporal Danilo Paciotti of the Criminal Investigation Department, and responsible for the recording, present for investigative requirements Dr. Giacinto Profazio Head of Perugia Flying Squad and Chief Inspector Monica Napoleoni and Assistant Chief Lorena Zugarini both of the Perugia Flying Squad, appears on being summoned Mr. Guede Rudy Hermann born in Agu, Ivory Coast 26 December 86 and resident in Perugia in Via del Canerino, 26/b. He is invited to state his personal details and any other information that serves to identify himself with the warning regarding the consequences to which he exposes himself, in other words you must tell the truth, here you must tell the truth about your personal details otherwise it’s a crime for refusing or to falsify them: personal details. Respond, I am and my name is? You have to say your name and where you were born. |
| Guede: | I am and I am called Guede Rudy Hermann, born 26 December 1986 at Ago, Ivory Coast. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Do you have any pseudo-names? |
| Guede: | No. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ok, I meant, Baron? |
| Guede: | Yes because seeing as it came out that they called me the Baron, none of the people that I know and that know me has ever called my with that nickname. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood, however has anybody ever called you by this nickname? |
| Guede: | Yes I’ve heard… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So nationality Ivorian |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Resident? |
| Guede: | Via del Canerino 26b |
| Pros. Mignini: | Perugia, no? |
| Guede: | Yes Perugia. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Place of work? Perugia. |
| Guede: | Perugia |
| Pros. Mignini: | Marital status? |
| Guede: | Single. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Bachelor. Personal or family and social conditions of life, nothing to observe, qualifications? |
| Guede: | Middle School |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes. Profession, occupation, the last… |
| Guede: | Last occupation as a gardener. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Assets, do you own any real estate? |
| Guede: | No |
| Pros. Mignini: | Not a landowner. Are you the subject of any proceedings or criminal trials? As far as you are aware there aren’t any. |
| Guede: | As far as I’m aware no. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Have you received any other notices? |
| Guede: | No |
| Pros. Mignini: | Have you been convicted in this country and/or abroad? |
| Guede: | No |
| Pros. Mignini: | Have you held or do you hold a position of public office or service or of public necessity? |
| Guede: | No, no |
| Pros. Mignini: | No, do you hold or have you held public positions? |
| Guede: | No |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right look apart from what is foreseen by the first paragraph of article 66 you were obliged to respond regarding your personal details, for everything else you have the right to not respond. But if you make statements on facts which concern the responsibility of others you will assume the position of witness on those facts and however if you don’t respond there will be, investigations will be carried out against you, apart from the incompatibilities foreseen by article 197 of the Code of Criminal Procedure and the guarantees provided by article 197 bis of the Code of Criminal Procedure. Present for the the deposition are your entrusted attorneys Nicodemo Gentile and Walter Biscotti of the Perugia Bar. So do you the entrusted Counsel confirm the nomination of both? |
| Biscotti: | Yes. |
| Pros. Mignini: | For the address of service? |
| Biscotti: | Out of my office. |
| Pros. Mignini: | From the office of Attorney Walter Biscotti in Perguia, Via? |
| Biscotti: | Corso Vannucci 107 |
| Pros. Mignini: | Corso Vannucci 107. So do you intend to respond? |
| Guede: | Yes. |
| Pros. Mignini: | You intend to respond. So the recording begins. So then when did you arrive in Perugia? |
| Guede: | I arrived in Perugia around March |
| Pros. Mignini: | March 2007? |
| Guede: | 2007 yes. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes and tell us what… where were you located, were you with anybody, yes? |
| Guede: | From March onwards. Well basically before arriving in Perugia seeing as I was in Lecco |
| Pros. Mignini: | In Lecco |
| Guede: | I called a dear … basically my teacher and I told her I was returning to Perugia. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Because you had already been in Perugia, this is the last… the last time that you came back to Perugia this is what I’m referring to this, I meant… so March 2007 and so you called your teacher, what is her name? |
| Guede: | Ivana Tiberi |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | Married name Mancini |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | And so when I came back I was a guest of theirs |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where do they live? |
| Guede: | They live in Ponte San Giovanni at via della Medusa 9. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | However as Ivana Tiberi has a very elderly mother of nearly 99 years of age they are in Piscille where the Technical College is. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | They live there in front of it and so we were there… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then? |
| Guede: | And so I started to stay with them and having arrived in Perugia she has a son who is called Gabriele Mancini |
| Pros. Mignini: | He became a friend |
| Guede: | From the time I was little basically, I’ve known this family |
| Pros. Mignini: | And what work did you do when you arrived? |
| Guede: | When I arrived together with Gabriele Mancini we looked for work via these temping agencies and after that in the end I went to work as a gardener at the agricultural company “Il Castellaro”. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Owned by? |
| Guede: | Ilaria Caporali |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes and where is this agricultural company? |
| Guede: | Between Ponte Pattoli and Villa Pitignano |
| Pros. Mignini: | Il Castellaro eh? |
| Guede: | Il Castellaro |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah I’ve understood, I’ve understood … yes |
| Guede: | Basically Il Castellaro is owned by the foster family where I had been, I had been fostered and so back in Perugia I started to work |
| Pros. Mignini: | But were you fostered by the Caporali? |
| Guede: | By the Caporali then later however I went to stay with my aunt. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | Once I reached the age of maturity |
| Pros. Mignini: | In Lecco |
| Guede: | In Lecco |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then you returned and so you rediscovered… |
| Guede: | Yes I rediscovered.. let’s say all my friends and the people I was attached to |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so you worked there until… |
| Guede: | I started and if I’m not mistaken from 3rd March until the last time which was the end of August |
| Pros. Mignini: | After August what happened? |
| Guede: | Well, in August I left this job and so I looked for another, it’s not as if I’m… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | Together with this friend who is called Giacomo Benedetti and I looked for work but in the meantime I had jobs like in catering, in a restaurant, in fact I was, I worked two days at the, if I’m not mistaken, the name should be Villa Umbra, I did some work there and then I did others through people I knew in Milan and Ancona |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah right so the job in catering in Milan and Ancona? |
| Guede: | Yes but they weren’t fixed positions |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, yes understood, I understand |
| Guede: | Waiting for the chance to find a longer term job. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Waiting for a |
| Guede: | So … this job… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Excuse me, here in Perugia … did you work in any restaurant bars … |
| Guede: | I also worked at Il Castellaro as a waiter on Saturdays and Sundays I worked at the Ics, a pizzeria located on Ponte San Giovanni |
| Pros. Mignini: | Go on |
| Guede: | After which in the end I left Ics because I couldn’t any more it had become a bit heavy going for me in any case I left it however I did it … and so as far as work that would have come along, unfortunately, basically it didn’t arrive because of what happened however I was sure it would have arrived in that, the family of a very dear friend Nicola Pisello, his family knew a certain… now his name escapes me, however a certain person that owned the Fast Service… Fast Service that would be Catering and Banqueting for which I had already worked in the past however and therefore I was … |
| Pros. Mignini: | Excuse me it’s called Fast Service? |
| Guede: | Fast Service |
| Pros. Mignini: | Without the T… I believe so… |
| Napoleoni: | Fast… |
| Guede: | Fast Service |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where is this… |
| Guede: | I’m struggling to remember … in the area of San Sisto if I’m not mistaken |
| Pros. Mignini: | Oh, then? |
| Guede: | As I was saying I was waiting that the father of my friend, Nicola, who is called Nicola Pisello, seeing as he was to speak with this gentleman, in addition I had already worked in this Fast Service before |
| Pros. Mignini: | Then it happened what happened and so you didn’t… |
| Guede: | And so I still can’t say whether it would have arrived [this job] or not |
| Pros. Mignini: | What I wanted to know is, in the moments of … the moments after work, in your free time did you go to the area of Piazza Grimana? |
| Guede: | You mean when I finished work? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | Yes well I finished work at approximately 5 and at 5:30 I would already be on my way home. And anyway seeing as basketball is my passion, I would go directly to the basketball court and I would play, often, many there… |
| Pros. Mignini: | In Piazza Grimana |
| Guede: | Piazza Grimana… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Who did you play with? |
| Guede: | Well in that period |
| Pros. Mignini: | Period, you are referring the period of the summer of 2007 |
| Guede: | From March until November |
| Pros. Mignini: | Who were the … |
| Guede: | In general the people who were present there, there were many Chinese, there were many Chinese guys then however there were some guys who came and went who didn’t usually play there but came for fun, then as regulars some black guys one I remember was a certain Patrick, a guy from Cameroon. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Patrick? |
| Guede: | I just know his Christian name, from Cameroon |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen but this is not Lumumba |
| Guede: | No, no it’s another Patrick… then there was me, a Lithuanian guy who I played with, I played and I would have played basketball, one that was called Viki Fracauscas (phonetic spelling) then other guys that I know but now I find it difficult to say their names. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And did you see this Patrick right up until the end? |
| Guede: | Up until the end yes, because I played often there |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right, being in that area, in that area, in that basketball court did you meet for example Amanda Knox? |
| Guede: | Well, no, not while I was there |
| Pros. Mignini: | Or in other circumstances? |
| Guede: | In other circumstances yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right, when did you meet her? |
| Guede: | If I can say something, an introductory statement |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | The two Italian guys who lived beneath Amanda’s house also came to the basketball court |
| Pros. Mignini: | You mean Giacomo |
| Guede: | Giacomo… now I have difficulty [in remembering]. Well I met Amanda in other circumstances away from the basketball court. Towards the beginning of September I went by chance, because finding out about it through a flyer, the opening of this pub that was called Le Chic |
| Pros. Mignini: | Le Chic |
| Guede: | And it was out of mere curiosity that I went to this bar and it was there that I met, that I saw for the first time Amanda. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you know Patrick Lumumba? |
| Guede: | I knew Patrick Lumumba by sight and anyhow there was a conversation with him but nothing of note |
| Pros. Mignini: | When was this? |
| Guede: | When I went to the Pub Le Chic |
| Pros. Mignini: | Was there somebody with you? |
| Guede: | No, I was alone that time, I was alone |
| Pros. Mignini: | What period was it? |
| Guede: | It was the start of September… the 4th now… I remember that I was alone only because I had a friend from Seattle called Victor that had left and so I was alone in that period. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And there you met Amanda |
| Guede: | For the first time Amanda, it was the first time I met her |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you talk to each other, were you… |
| Guede: | Yes, we spoke because when I entered, with her being the waitress she asked me if I wanted something to drink and seeing as she didn’t ask me in Italian and she asked me in American English, we started to talk and then it came out that she was from Seattle and so I told her that I had a friend from Seattle who was at YW of the University of Washington and if she knew him and then we realized that they didn’t know each other and it ended there. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you never frequent each other? |
| Guede: | We didn’t… I never frequented Amanda except, if we could call it frequenting, later the evening when I was in the house of the guys |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood. So before getting on to… so you saw Amanda again the evening that you went to Meredith’s house. |
| Guede: | No [the house] of the guys |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah of the guys… of the guys |
| Guede: | Of the guys below but this was later however |
| Pros. Mignini: | This happened when? |
| Guede: | It happened… well the date it happened was in October however the date I recall it was the birthday of another American friend of mine, I would use that as the date |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | However it happened in October, now I wouldn’t be able to say if it was the 12th or the 14th |
| Pros. Mignini: | Oh, was Amanda alone, did you always see her by herself or was someone with her |
| Guede: | That evening? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | That evening seeing as it was the birthday of this friend of mine and we were… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Here we are … |
| Napoleoni: | What’s his name? |
| Guede: | Owen |
| Pros. Mignini: | Owen. We’re talking about the evening when you were [in the house] below? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | What’s his nationality? |
| Guede: | American |
| Pros. Mignini: | Do you have his telephone number or anything? |
| Guede: | I have his telephone number but I don’t remember it from memory. Because basically |
| Pros. Mignini: | Owen? |
| Guede: | Owen |
| Pros. Mignini: | This is the surname |
| Guede: | Yes because he was, he was part of a group of boys that had come through a football school there were those who were from the United States and those who were from New Zealand and I got to know them and I also spent time at their house however the address I wouldn’t be able to tell you |
| Pros. Mignini: | So that evening there in the house below in the floor below was he also there? |
| Guede: | No, no so as we went to celebrate this guy in the center at the end of the evening while each was returning [home] I met the two guys that live below and then other friends of theirs |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | As well as Amanda and we started to talk |
| Pros. Mignini: | Who are those friends, the two guys are Giacomo |
| Guede: | and the other guy, plus their friends |
| Pros. Mignini: | And was Amanda also there? |
| Guede: | And Amanda was also there with them |
| Pros. Mignini: | Oh, was there anybody else there with them… who was there… who were these friends? Can you describe them? |
| Guede: | I mean I knew the two Italian guys because they played basketball |
| Pros. Mignini: | And they lived on the floor below |
| Guede: | And there I found out that they lived below on that road and then the other guys were… anyway I saw.. |
| Pros. Mignini: | But was there anybody with Amanda? |
| Guede: | No, nobody… no no and since on the way home, because we had to take the same road |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | I went along the road with them and once there more or less at the junction where I would go up Corso Garibaldi and they would go down one of them said to me “come on come to our house let’s get together for a while” and so there I went down with them towards their house |
| Pros. Mignini: | And you watched television, what did you do? |
| Guede: | We didn’t watch television, once we arrived at their house at a certain point Amanda it seems went to her house and we went down because they lived right underneath, and there we entered tranquilly and we began to talk, basically from what I can say is, there was he who said that she was a pretty girl, he who said he liked her and anyway I also made some comments |
| Pros. Mignini: | What comments did you make? |
| Guede: | I made, well, comments that we guys make we could say… yes I would like to, excuse the term, give her one… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, yes |
| Guede: | We used these terms and in doing so, in using these terms at a certain point we heard a knock at the door and we find ourselves saying… talk of the devil and here she is, Amanda. Amanda appeared. |
| Pros. Mignini: | She knocked at the door, and so she came down |
| Guede: | She came out of her house |
| Pros. Mignini: | And she came down and then what… |
| Guede: | While we were talking about her, she knocked at the door and we found her there in front of us and we all started laughing together, after which she entered and like that from nothing, now I don’t remember who but one of the guys started to roll what you call a joint, he started to roll it |
| Pros. Mignini: | Amanda as well |
| Guede: | Yes, we started to smoke it, I also smoked it but I’ve never smoked a cigarette in my life, I’ve always faked smoking however I smoked it if you want to call it that and Amanda that evening, everybody smoked, and Amanda also smoked and the thing which stayed with me was that I observed this girl that smoked in an exaggerated manner and one of the guys, now I don’t remember if it was Bonazio or Stefano, said to me that she often came below to their house to smoke together… |
| Attorney: | Bonazi or Stefano is the same person |
| Guede: | After which a little time later … |
| Pros. Mignini: | Before going on, how was Amanda when … I mean |
| Guede: | She was … |
| Pros. Mignini: | What effect did it have on her? Because it can vary from person to person… so what effect did it have on her this joint? How was she? |
| Guede: | I have to tell the truth that evening everyone was relaxed, because I remember exactly that there was this table [in the flat] below, Amanda was to my left, there was a guy here, around me there were a couple of guys and I spoke quietly with the guys and so on |
| Pros. Mignini: | However she exaggerated in her smoking… |
| Guede: | Yes this is something I noticed… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And was she high? |
| Guede: | No, no, she was quiet sitting normally,… then at a later time |
| Pros. Mignini: | We’re in October then no? |
| Guede: | Yes, it was that evening and here with the times |
| Pros. Mignini: | However let’s go back a bit to the pizzeria, at the Le Chic pub because we interrupted it |
| Guede: | Ok however still speaking of that evening now for the times I wouldn’t be able to be precise however I’d say later and at a certain point we heard a knock at the door and Meredith appeared. So I would start by saying that when we were with Amanda and the guys talking I learned that two Italian girls lived upstairs with two other Italian girls [sic], one of them was Amanda and they live below and so there seeing this girl that entered and from the accent I realized that she was the English girl, when I saw her I mean I turned to this girl that I already knew vaguely from before, and I said “but you don’t seem English at all” and she said to me she had mixed parents. If I’m not mistaken the mother is Indian. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Indian |
| Guede: | And that evening anyway I was struck by this girl and we talked since she was sitting in front of me and for the most part I spoke with her |
| Pros. Mignini: | And what was Amanda doing, what was she doing in that moment? |
| Guede: | Amanda was talking with the others because by then I was … |
| Pros. Mignini: | And like Meredith how was Amanda? |
| Guede: | But there wasn’t any… she was sitting normally and I didn’t notice a any real interest that evening |
| Pros. Mignini: | Oh, did Meredith smoke? |
| Guede: | I have to start by saying that yes it’s true Meredith smoked however she will have had one puff and no more … without thinking, like what happened with me when you’re in the group and you join in… however she wasn’t a smoker |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then what happened? In other words how long did you remain there? |
| Guede: | Eh we were there a good while and we spoke for quite some time with Meredith and anyway |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you arrange a date? |
| Guede: | No, no that evening we spoke calmly then up until I would guess 4 O’clock |
| Pros. Mignini: | But was there a guy there that freque… basically he was the boyfriend in that… |
| Guede: | No, no absolutely no… well I didn’t see anybody approach Amanda in an affectionate way |
| Pros. Mignini: | No, no I’m asking of Meredith |
| Guede: | No, not in the slightest, neither towards Amanda or towards Meredith absolutely not |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so how long did you stay there? |
| Guede: | I think about, towards half past four or five O’clock more or less however I have difficulty remembering the time now, the first person who wanted to leave was Meredith who said “I’m going, I’m going to bed” and after that Amanda followed her. So in fact the two girls had left and then I stayed a while with the Italian guys at first I was about to leave too however seeing as I’d already come from a birthday party… of a friend in the end I was a bit high, basically, this atmosphere with the smoking I asked the guys if I could sleep at their house. And they said OK and I slept on the sofa at the house of these guys until the morning. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And did you go to the bathroom? |
| Guede: | Yes I got up and I went to the bathroom and I returned to the same position I’d been sitting before |
| Pros. Mignini: | Going back to the time at the Le Chic pub so Amanda was something of a waitress there |
| Guede: | Yes as I said she came to ask for my… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you speak with Lumumba? |
| Guede: | Yes, I spoke with him |
| Pros. Mignini: | And what did you say to each other? |
| Guede: | Well I spoke with Lumumba because I went to ask for, I remember exactly everything about that evening, because I had a Sangria that cost 2 Euros and then Lumumba, I still didn’t know him, he asked where I came from and I told him where I was from and then we talked … and I have to tell the truth I know he is the owner but in that moment I thought he was somebody who worked there and after that I didn’t stay long at the Le Chic bar and after that I left because… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And Amanda from that moment up until that evening in which … you didn’t see her again? |
| Guede: | No |
| Pros. Mignini: | You said earlier that you knew Meredith vaguely, in what sense? |
| Guede: | Yes because she knew the same people that I went out with in other words I saw her a couple of times before that evening at Merlin’s and at Domus, at Shamrock.. there’s a bar that’s called Shamrock and I saw her there then after that evening in fact I began to talk to her in a manner that was more … more open basically… |
| Pros. Mignini: | She had an, basically you liked her? … this girl? |
| Guede: | Meredith? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh? |
| Guede: | No, I was struck by her charm let’s say yes… however if I have to tell the truth yes. Because that evening I spoke with her a lot |
| Pros. Mignini: | For a long time… then there was the Rugby match? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | When did this happen? |
| Guede: | Well after that evening, well the Rugby match, we were still in October, however I have difficulty [in remembering] |
| Pros. Mignini: | This was later… |
| Guede: | Later yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | What match was it? |
| Guede: | England South Africa, the rugby final and I had gone to Shamrock’s in this bar that’s an Irish pub, with my friends |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where would this be? |
| Guede: | Shamrock’s is near the Etruscan Arch, so that evening with my friends, seeing as it was the final between England and South Africa, with friends who were Philip, Alex, [not heard] Frederic and that day the brother of Alex and a friend of his came from New Zealand and we went to see it, because we had already planned it, anyway we had booked to go to Shamrock’s and to see the match and while we were there watching this match we didn’t realize it but a group of English guys came, a group of English guys who had also booked to see the match and they sat behind us, basically we were in the front row and they were behind and then Meredith arrived, I waved to her, Alex too because they know her anyway and then I was at the back watching the match all together and basically there was some banter but like between young guys because we, me, Alex and the others, were pulling for South Africa and behind us there were those who were pulling for England. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Was Amanda there? |
| Guede: | No, she wasn’t there and here I have to make another, I have to say something. Every time I saw Meredith, the places that I frequented, Meredith was always in company, the company with whom I went out with, and never Amanda. So in my view they never went out together basically in the evening. |
| Pros. Mignini: | One thing the boyfriend, let’s call him, of Amanda, did you know him? |
| Guede: | So |
| Pros. Mignini: | Have you understood who he is? |
| Guede: | Sollecito and I must say that he is a person who I don’t know, I don’t know who he is. Now I know who he is. However I didn’t know of his existence, I didn’t know. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And he lived close to your house |
| Guede: | I have heard that he also lived in Corso Garibaldi however I have to say with sincere honesty that I don’t know who he is |
| Pros. Mignini: | You never spoke to him? |
| Guede: | I’ve never spoken to him but to confirm it, if I can say something, as I frequented Merlin’s, Domus, Shamrock’s and Rockcastle’s they are the places where I would go and where many guys of my age go and if they were places where Sollecito had ever been to I’d have certainly seen him, like I’d seen many other guys that I don’t know but the face I have imprinted in my head and if Amanda had gone out with this guy in the same circle of friends as Meredith I would have certainly seen and recognized him. |
| Pros. Mignini: | But of course that’s clear |
| Guede: | This is what I wanted to say |
| Pros. Mignini: | Amanda, you hadn’t… in the meantime you hadn’t seen her again? Only on these three occasions then |
| Guede: | On these three occasions but sometimes around town… hello and no more |
| Pros. Mignini: | Two occasions… so the first time you saw her |
| Guede: | The first time ever was at the Le Chic pub then at the house of the guys and after which … |
| Pros. Mignini: | At this match |
| Guede: | No Amanda wasn’t there |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah yes, yes Meredith |
| Guede: | Then Amanda… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So on two occasions Amanda |
| Guede: | No, if I’m precise I would bump into her around town but it was a hello and nothing more.. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right around town, but around town was she alone? |
| Guede: | Yes, I always saw her on her own |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | Always |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where did you see her? |
| Guede: | Well as I often played basketball right in Piazza Grimana or I would come from the center to the Etruscan Arch I bumped into her once when she was going up… hello and nothing more.. basically in these… |
| Pros. Mignini: | We forgot to talk about the sources… in other words the elements against you, the sources of proof, which anyway you know, anyway you know them because they are statements of people informed of the facts, and after I wanted to get to that, and then the results of the Scientific Police, the footprint and these things are things that you know, they’ve already been asked of you during the questioning before the Judge for the Preliminary Investigations (GIP) |
| Attorney: | He’s perfectly aware of it |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so we take note of it |
| Napoleoni: | So Rudy, when you recounted the evening of Owen’s birthday and then you went to the house of the guys that live on the floor below in the house on Via della Pergola of Amanda, you tell us that while you returned downstairs Amanda went to her house |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Napoleoni: | So Amanda was with you? Can you tell me about this first phase? What did you all do first? |
| Guede: | So when we arrived at the point, we went down to the point close to their house, Amanda went to her house |
| Napoleoni: | So Amanda was with all of you from before? |
| Guede: | Yes, we went down together from the center |
| Napoleoni: | And where was this? Where did you see her? Where did you see Amanda that evening before going to the house of the guys? |
| Guede: | Eh right in front of Shamrock’s, a little further ahead |
| Napoleoni: | So she wasn’t with you when celebrating your friend’s birthday, you met her… here tell us this… |
| Guede: | With these Italian guys… basically that evening we went to celebrate with this guy and his friends, I was with people who I went out with often, who were Alex, Philip, Jacob an Israeli guy and Frederic who is a Dutch guy and Philips who is an Austrian guy and we went because then we met these guys who played football here and studied, and we went to their house, we ate, we celebrated and after that we went back to the center and we went to Shamrock’s and also to RockCastle’s then at a certain point, I’ll mention this detail, well … We accompanied Owen back to Alex’s house, because he was completely drunk and after we went back to the center, we were there a while, it would have been about two O’clock at night then we decided that it was late and each went to his own house. On leaving Rock Castle’s the Italian guys recognized me, the two Italian guys, because I hadn’t noticed them. |
| Napoleoni: | The ones who play basketball with you in Piazza Grimana… |
| Guede: | They stopped me and we started to talk, while we were talking Amanda came out |
| Napoleoni: | From Shamrock’s |
| Guede: | No, I don’t know where she came from however when this girl came I was a bit tipsy and so I saw this girl that was there with the guys and I started to talk with her. She started saying she was from Seattle, and so on and there I, I had like a flashback and I said “but I know you” and Amanda said to me “yes, we’ve already met at the Pub Le Chic”… and there I lost sight of my friends who most likely seeing me talking with these went off, and there I expressed the wish to go back home all together and we went down together for each to go to their own home… |
| Napoleoni: | This was the passage that we were missing |
| Pros. Mignini: | Is this the evening that you saw the match? |
| Guede: | No that’s later |
| Pros. Mignini: | Later, after this it’s another evening |
| Guede: | This is the evening of this guy’s birthday |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, yes I’ve understood, I’ve understood, I’ve understood… |
| Guede: | We went down together, me, the Italian guys and their friends with Amanda… and then we got to, I could have taken Corso Garibaldi and they said to me “come with us for a while” and there I went with them |
| Napoleoni: | OK |
| Pros. Mignini: | When you returned from, I mean when leaving the house on Via della Pergola, to return home what route would you take? |
| Guede: | Via della Pergola is where Meredith’s house is |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | I would go up, where there is the “Contrappunto” |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | There’s the road which goes all the way up to the traffic light |
| Pros. Mignini: | From the direction… I’ve understood |
| Guede: | The University is there and I would take Corso Garibaldi and I would go back up |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood. Did you know the area of the car park? That car park |
| Guede: | The car park above… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you go by that way? |
| Guede: | Sort of… well… if I can give an explanation |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, yes |
| Guede: | I know of the car park, in that |
| Pros. Mignini: | Which takes you up there, that you can access also from that side, did you know… |
| Guede: | In what sense can you access also from that side? |
| Pros. Mignini: | In other words you can access the car park from the road above, Via Pinturicchio basically |
| Guede: | From the other side basically… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Via Pinturicchio, there’s Piazza Grimana, the Etruscan Arch opposite, Via Pinturicchio is on the left. |
| Guede: | Yes the road that descends then… |
| Pros. Mignini: | That descends to Porta Pesa… |
| Guede: | To Porta Pesa |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh… did you know that you could access Via Pinturicchio from the car park? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Or not? |
| Guede: | No… |
| Pros. Mignini: | How do you get there? |
| Guede: | Because from Via Pinturicchio I think that you can get there because if you go along Via Pinturicchio there are lots of those roads |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | That anyway lead to… |
| Pros. Mignini: | But from the car park to access Via Pinturicchio or what… |
| Guede: | I wouldn’t be able to say however I know that you can get there… because going along Via Pinturicchio… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you ever pass that way via a metal staircase |
| Guede: | Me, no |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | If I can just say something? I’ve been in that car park with a friend who parked his car there but some time ago and basically I know that there’s a metallic staircase but I’ve never thought about it because parking there there’s no need to go by that staircase to exit towards… |
| Pros. Mignini: | You never went by that staircase? |
| Guede: | No no |
| Pros. Mignini: | Oh… so we’ve got to the end of October then no? I think? |
| Guede: | Yes mid-October |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right so then what happened? |
| Guede: | Going back to the rugby no? To use it as a reference later we watched this match together no? And later on another occasion whereby I went back to the house of the guy’s below |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | The first time was that evening and then I returned a second time which was… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So in Via della Pergola |
| Guede: | Yes in Via della Pergola with the guys below which was the day of the last Formula one race which was held in Brazil. I went there to the guys because of course they played basketball there and I knew them and as I said not knowing what to do I said “I’ll go there” |
| Pros. Mignini: | This was evening |
| Guede: | Yes, around five in the afternoon because the race if I’m not mistaken was at five, at six or at seven… now I don’t remember that well. I went there, I knocked and it was the second time that I was at their place. There, at five in the afternoon I found them all in bed, because Saturday, it was a Sunday, I mean on Saturday they had been, they had told me that they had gone to the discotheque, with Amanda I think if I’m not mistaken and they were a bit tired … then after that… |
| Pros. Mignini: | But did they speak of anybody being with Amanda, a certain Raffaele |
| Guede: | No, no, no I mean the way we talked about her |
| Pros. Mignini: | It seemed she didn’t have a relationship |
| Guede: | It seemed that she didn’t have anybody, in fact I have to add that one of the guys below said to me that he wanted to give her one, I mean by saying “she lives above me don’t worry sooner or later I will go out with her” was more or less what he said… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And you didn’t go above in that moment, on the floor above |
| Guede: | In that moment I didn’t go there, no the first time was in fact the evening of the first of November and when I was at the place of the guys below, I didn’t know the Italian girls however that day that we watched the Formula One a girl that lived above came down and what I noticed was that she gave 5 Euros to one of the guys and she took some smokes and that was it. That’s when I saw one of the Italian girls who lived above. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And Amanda and Meredith weren’t there |
| Guede: | That day no, no there was just me and the Italian guys |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right, and then? |
| Guede: | And after that I left… having finished watching the Formula One |
| Pros. Mignini: | In the days of October up until the end of October, did you go back, did you see again… |
| Guede: | No, no |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you see Amanda again |
| Guede: | So |
| Pros. Mignini: | Meredith |
| Guede: | In the days of October I saw Meredith lots of times |
| Pros. Mignini: | Many times |
| Guede: | Many times |
| Pros. Mignini: | Who was she with? |
| Guede: | At Merlin’s… she was with her friends, with her English girl friends |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you know these girl friends? |
| Guede: | Well, if by know them, I… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Sophie for example… |
| Guede: | If I can say know them like I know Alex no however yes I’ve hung out with some English girls |
| Pros. Mignini: | With who? |
| Guede: | This is my problem I haven’t got the… there wasn’t that… Unlike with some English girls that I’ve personally known or like how I knew Alex, with some of these or like Meredith I never hung out and spoke with them |
| Pros. Mignini: | You exchanged a few words |
| Guede: | Eh the odd word like the evening of the… the rugby after the match finished an English girl, me and my friends, we talked a bit but… then after that she left |
| Pros. Mignini: | Let’s go to the evening of Halloween… oh, what was the weather like that evening? |
| Guede: | Well me, the evening of Halloween and so I have to start from… |
| Pros. Mignini: | 31 October, 1 November |
| Guede: | 31 October, as a starting point I’ll try to start from the afternoon to see how it was… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh start from the beginning of the afternoon of 31 |
| Guede: | Now I have this difficulty [remembering] however I think in the afternoon of 31 I played basketball. In Piazza Grimana |
| Pros. Mignini: | In Piazza Grimana |
| Guede: | And so it certainly wasn’t raining. I remember this. Then in the evening I couldn’t say if it rained or not, this… the weather I wouldn’t know |
| Pros. Mignini: | And who did you play basketball with on the 31st? |
| Guede: | With the usual guys that are there |
| Pros. Mignini: | So the usual guys |
| Guede: | They could have been the Chinese |
| Pros. Mignini: | Patrick? |
| Guede: | Patrick, I don’t think so… I don’t think so because he came on specific days when he knew there were people playing, basically I mean who played well at basketball because during the week days it was really full of Chinese guys that anyway it’s not as if they played … |
| Napoleoni: | However Rudy you are not certain that you played on that afternoon of 31… |
| Guede: | Eh I’m not certain however I have the impression of having played… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | Meaning if it rains I don’t go to play |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then did you have plans for that evening |
| Guede: | So for that evening I had had plans for some time, yes… there was a plan already organized for some time and not decided there in that moment |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right, with who? |
| Guede: | Basically that evening I was to go to the house of the two Spanish guys, of two Spanish guys that have the names Carlos and Thomas |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where do they live? |
| Guede: | The street, this is another thing I have difficulty in remembering the exact name.. the area basically is where there are those steps that lead to, where the Greek Consulate is, I don’t know if you know the area… in via Oberdan, you go down the steps and as soon as you start going down you take a turn before getting to the bottom that leads to Corso Cavour you take a turn and they live in that street. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Via Campo di Battaglia |
| Guede: | However this… and I was to go and be with these guys Carlos and Thomas this because the days before I got to know them and when I say I got to know them I mean in a very real way because I’ve met a lots of people in a superficial way however. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Were there Spanish girls |
| Guede: | Yes, when I arrived in that house I then came to know that they lived with others, with other Spanish guys and other Spanish girls, with some Spanish girls who were friends, the friends of the two Spanish girls that lived above me in Via del Canerino… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So then that evening where were you? |
| Guede: | That evening after leaving my house around eight thirty, around eight thirty after leaving my house I called Carlos and Thomas to find out exactly the area where they lived via one of the girls that lives above me and after that I went to their house and it was in the plan |
| Pros. Mignini: | Via Campo di Battaglia |
| Guede: | Via Campo di Battaglia and it was in the plan that we would watch the football match, we were to celebrate Halloween… ah before all that we were to watch the football match Real Madrid Valencia that was played that evening, together with the guys. I arrived at their house, we ate, pizza and various things, we watched the match and when the match finished we were there… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Were all these guys Spanish? |
| Guede: | All Spanish… and in the meantime other people arrived, other Spanish guys, when the match finished we spoke, chatted and while the girls prepared their outfits and I remember the outfits they prepared were all a bit like cats… |
| Pros. Mignini: | The Spanish girls |
| Guede: | The Spanish girls yes… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And you stayed there until what time? |
| Guede: | We stayed there until… I think towards midnight and after that we went out, we went out and when leaving that house we drunk a lot of Sangria and I’m a bit uncertain about the time and we went out and there because my plans were to go to the house of the Spanish guys and that girl knew and after that I found out we were going to another place to the house of other Spanish guys and off we went and we arrived at this residence |
| Pros. Mignini: | And where was this residence? |
| Attorney: | However if I can be of help we are able to produce the photos of the party that Rudy attended… the second party, we have the diskette and some photos in black and white… these are some examples |
| Guede: | The particularity of this residence is that is has a staircase |
| Napoleoni: | External |
| Guede: | External that goes up and has a door, I remember this staircase in particular because years earlier when I was in Perugia, as boys when we went out on Saturdays and we would meet there with friends and then we would go eat in the center |
| Napoleoni: | Behind the rosette beneath via Bonazzi? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Attorney: | Right now I can’t remember the exact name of the street either however do you know Via Bonazzi? Via Bonazzi is the road where there is the Pizzeria, Via Larga, where there is a Pizzeria, you take a turn there and there’s a little square |
| Napoleoni: | Are we talking about after the Segreto di Pulcinella? |
| Attorney: | There’s a small square and the house has a staircase… you recognize the door because there is a straight staircase that is very steep and there’s a door where various students live. From Rudy’s description we tracked down these guys and we asked them if it was true that Rudy had been there and they had taken photos, and I arranged to get a copy of the photos which I have on the diskette and I can provide them to you. Where you see clearly that Rudy was there and Rudy will now explain why he made statements that were confusing. |
| Guede: | I arrived at this house and we entered, me and the Spanish guys that I went out with, having entered into this house I noticed that anyway there were a lot of people in there and I entered there and discovered that it was the place where we were supposed to go and after that I stayed there. Here I have to explain something. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | In this house I believe I confused things because basically |
| Attorney: | Confused with respect to what? With respect to the previous interrogation? |
| Guede: | Yes with respect to the previous interrogation, so as you know in the previous interrogation I said that I had seen Meredith in that house and basically it happened that in the place where I didn’t see Meredith I thought I’d seen her and where I did seen her I thought I hadn’t seen her. I confused things. |
| Napoleoni: | OK explain it now |
| Pros. Mignini: | So now you didn’t see her there |
| Guede: | I didn’t see her |
| Pros. Mignini: | She wasn’t there and indeed she’s not here… she can’t be seen and where did you see her? |
| Guede: | I was in that house until about two I think… however with the times I can’t be precise, until at a certain point a guy turned off the music and said “everybody to Domus” and all the people present in that house, we went down and we headed for Domus. I had already been to Domus other times but never at two was it so full like that evening and in fact when we entered it wasn’t even possible to get through. And there was really a lot of people, there was a lot of people and I am, the Spanish guys and I with other guys we tried to stay as close to each other as possible however despite everything I moved off, I moved around and as in the Domus there is a, you could say a foyer… There is the drinks counter and then there is a room, there is an arch and a room. Moving around there I met Meredith who approached me dressed as a vampire and I said to her joking “what do you want, do you want to suck my blood because you lost the match” I mean going back to that, then we joked and we were a while… |
| Pros. Mignini: | What time was it? |
| Guede: | On this I wouldn’t be able to say, I know I entered… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Was she alone? I mean in that moment when you saw her? |
| Guede: | There was a really lot of people around |
| Pros. Mignini: | But you don’t know… she was dressed as a vampire |
| Guede: | She was dressed as a vampire yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you notice whether other girls had this, this disguise of this type? |
| Guede: | Yes there were others yes, yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | How did she wear her hair… |
| Guede: | Eh to describe her hair is a bit difficult because the lighting was really… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh… anyway were there English girls there? |
| Guede: | Yes, there were people of all races, well I tell you the problem that I didn’t recognize her immediately because when she approached me it was precisely because the lighting and the way … |
| Pros. Mignini: | Only on this… you only spoke with her in this how-do-you-call-it? In this room |
| Guede: | At Domus |
| Pros. Mignini: | No inside in a room, where was it? |
| Guede: | It’s not a proper room it’s a bit odd |
| Napoleoni: | There’s the entrance with the counter and then there’s an arch with another room |
| Guede: | They are all connected in the same place |
| Pros. Mignini: | And for how long did you talk? |
| Guede: | I think ten minutes, now I’m not sure… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | Approximately |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you arrange an appointment? |
| Guede: | Eh here I don’t know… if I can clarify one thing, no? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Of course |
| Guede: | I started talking with Meredith after I had recognized her, we talked and anyway while talking I gave her a kiss but it wasn’t a passionate kiss, it was just a kiss like this and after that I expressed how much I liked her and I asked if the next day, despite all the confusion, if we could see each other the next day and she said yes. After that however … |
| Pros. Mignini: | At what time? |
| Guede: | We were to see each other in the evening around eight thirty more or less… after that I went off, I didn’t hang around there with her and I wandered around the place to look for other people in fact I met people that I knew that evening one being Vicky this Ukrainian guy in Domus, with another Albanian guy whose name I can’t remember however I know him. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then? |
| Guede: | Then I believe I danced with a load of people, I believe I danced with loads of girls that evening and anyway I was always around the Spanish guys. |
| Attorney: | However Mr. Prosecutor in relation to what Rudy has said that contradicts with the interrogation performed by the Judge for the Preliminary Investigations (GIP) just for the sake of accuracy we have carried out checks, we have been somewhat fortunate and a little less in verifying that Rudy appeared in these photos and to demonstrate the presence of the Spanish group, we find it is demonstrated by the party at Domus as Rudy appears in some photos, so the fact that Rudy was at Domus is not under discussion. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes you will provide these, no? |
| Attorney: | No, I will provide you the diskette which is in color |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah the diskette, perfect. |
| Attorney: | With all the photos in color, now I don’t have it with me but we can tell you the source for where they come from without problems. |
| Pros. Mignini: | So what time did you remain there until? |
| Guede: | In Domus? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | Well up until… until the party came to an end |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you see Meredith again? |
| Guede: | No I could have also seen her again that evening but I don’t remember, however as there was chaos, the atmosphere was euphoric … |
| Pros. Mignini: | Of course |
| Napoleoni: | Up until what time was it so full of people? |
| Guede: | Up until the end I believe. However little by little the people left though… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Three, Four O’Clock |
| Guede: | NO later… five, half past five |
| Pros. Mignini: | Five, half past five |
| Napoleoni: | So you were there until it closed… |
| Guede: | Until it closed, yes I was there, the Spanish girls were also there, after which at a certain point I got up and said I’m going home |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so on the day of the first? How did you spend it? |
| Guede: | The day of the first I spent sleeping quite a bit |
| Pros. Mignini: | Quite a lot, well yes, of course. What time did you wake up? |
| Guede: | I woke up towards the afternoon, I think something like six… I woke up and here something I didn’t say in the previous interrogation, still on the 31st which refers to the first… Having been at the house of these Spanish guys basically we had the Halloween party and the next day, the first, we were to have another party. And basically to make you understand the existence of this party they gave me a flyer with the logo of the film Pasticcio on it, and this party of the first was just for this Spanish girl, there was actually this flyer at Domus. Still at Domus and anyway the 31st had been a very long evening, I slept until the afternoon, I woke up… |
| Pros. Mignini: | The 31st? The first? |
| Guede: | I mean the 31st had been long and on the first I woke up and I got ready in any case because I knew that there was this thing and I got ready to go, I had this other appointment with these Spanish guys also… |
| Pros. Mignini: | When? At what time? |
| Guede: | We were to see each other towards nine to eat together and then spend some time in the center and go to this party |
| Pros. Mignini: | One moment but didn’t you have the appointment with Meredith? |
| Guede: | Eh it was all something … |
| Pros. Mignini: | It was all together |
| Guede: | It was all together… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So there was the appointment with Meredith and then you were supposed to meet these Spanish guys, who were these Spanish guys can you repeat it? |
| Guede: | Always Carlos and Thomas… always the group… Carlos and Thomas |
| Pros. Mignini: | And where were you to meet them? |
| Guede: | I was supposed to meet them at their house |
| Attorney: | On Via Campo di Battaglia |
| Pros. Mignini: | Via Campo di Battaglia |
| Napoleoni: | Do you remember their surnames Rudy? |
| Guede: | No, this no… |
| Napoleoni: | Carlos and Thomas… |
| Attorney: | There are the photos, you can point them out eh? |
| Napoleoni: | Ah |
| Pros. Mignini: | So that evening you were to see, to go to Meredith’s house |
| Attorney: | Seeing as he has indicated these names… |
| Pros. Mignini: | We take note that … |
| Attorney: | In the Spanish group with it being a small circle we were able to identify nearly all the participants, for Domus it has been a bit more complicated. |
| Guede: | Here I can identify one of the two but it’s difficult to see him… |
| (interruption of the recording) | |
| Pros. Mignini: | So then the evening of the first… we resume at 11:53 after an interruption of about 5 minutes from 11:45. |
| Guede: | To help you understand better, from the moment that I arrived at the house of the Spanish guys and we started to watch the match, after that we talked and we laughed, I found out that on the first there would have been… that I already knew about it previously I … |
| Pros. Mignini: | Still at Via Campo di Battaglia? |
| Guede: | Yes, still with the guys there and I already knew about it previously and so it was something… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And at what time was the appointment? |
| Guede: | Well I was to see them at about ten, nine… |
| Pros. Mignini: | After having been with Meredith, obviously… |
| Guede: | Because Meredith came later… I’m not sure if I’m explaining myself |
| Napoleoni: | It was already arranged… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes first he made an arrangement with the Spaniards |
| Guede: | It was something I knew about |
| Pros. Mignini: | Then you met Meredith |
| Guede: | I met Meredith and I expressed the wish to see her and so basically |
| Pros. Mignini: | So you had to take into account that you were to go see Meredith at a certain time and then you were to go to the Spaniards |
| Guede: | It was something that was already organized, I only heard about it, or rather said this I also had the flyer, there was this party and they expressed the desire that I came too |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood |
| Attorney: | At Domus |
| Pros. Mignini: | At Domus |
| Attorney: | The first of November |
| Guede: | And so that evening I got ready and I went to the house. I left very early from my house. |
| Pros. Mignini: | At what time |
| Guede: | Here I’m 100% certain of the time because leaving my house the news was starting which starts at half past seven, the news program TG3. |
| Pros. Mignini: | At 19:30 |
| Guede: | At 19:30 yes. I first went to Meredith’s house and there was no one there and I also went to the house of the guys below to see if the Italian guys were at home and also there I noticed that nobody was there and there I said to myself “she must be at the University” |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you knock? What did you do? |
| Guede: | I knocked at the house… nobody was there |
| Pros. Mignini: | Nobody responded? Was it also dark, were there not any lights on? |
| Guede: | No there were no lights on and seeing that… and I got the idea that maybe it was too early and… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So it was about… about… |
| Guede: | From my house to get to the house of… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Quarter to eight |
| Guede: | But not even that because from my house to arrive at Meredith’s house doesn’t take much… |
| Attorney: | However on the times… you also spoke to me earlier of ten minutes… now, on the hours and minutes, I… |
| Guede: | Of course, of course |
| Attorney: | We must accept there is a lot of room for approximation |
| Pros. Mignini: | Towards 7:40 more or less |
| Guede: | Let’s say |
| Pros. Mignini: | You arrived there at the house and nobody was there |
| Guede: | Nobody was there, myself having left my house, realizing that I left my house at half past seven I said to myself that anyway… I saw that it was too early to go to the house of the Spanish guys and so I said, as it had been some time that I hadn’t seen Alex, I’ll pass by to see if he’s home. I knocked and I must have waited about 5 minutes after which he opened, I waited, I could have gone if nobody opened the door however as I saw his bedroom light was on I hung around a while longer and in the end he opened. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where did Alex live? |
| Guede: | Via Ulisse… I don’t… |
| Attorney: | At the end of Via Bartolo, the steps that take you from Piazza Grimana towards Via Bartolo. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah… I understand |
| Guede: | And then there are those steps which descend towards via Pinturicchio |
| Attorney: | Going down Via Bartolo there are those steps and there is that house there and he lives right… you go up the first steps, Alex lives on the left, there is a large door that for many years was under scaffolding for restructuring purposes. |
| Pros. Mignini: | But going up towards… |
| Attorney: | From Piazza Grimana, Mr. Prosecutor |
| Pros. Mignini: | So towards the Etruscan arch |
| Attorney: | The steps that go up towards Via Bartolo from Piazza Grimana… to the side of the road there are steps that ascend at a certain point… |
| Guede: | Where there is the Etruscan arch, the fountain and then there is that road that ascends |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh that one there… via Bartolo is… to the side there are steps |
| Guede: | And Alex lives there and seeing his bedroom light on because you can actually see it, I waited a while and anyway I saw he was in the bathroom and we talked and I asked… |
| Napoleoni: | Did you go in? |
| Guede: | To his house, yes… |
| Pros. Mignini: | When you were there .Was there anybody else? |
| Guede: | No just Alex… he was alone… he was alone… |
| Napoleoni: | You are certain of this? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes Alex was alone, he was alone and we talked. I asked him his news, he asked about news of me, after which we said “see you later” but in a way that I wasn’t obliged to return to him… so… after this I left. |
| Pros. Mignini: | At what time? |
| Guede: | Eh I’m struggling [to remember]… here I’m struggling however… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Quarter past eight more or less… |
| Guede: | Well even earlier I think and then after I went back up, I mean I didn’t go back down, I went back up and there is the “Turreno” I don’t know if you know what that is |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes of course |
| Guede: | And the Cathedral is there. The main façade when I go up is to the side where there is a Kebab place… |
| Pros. Mignini: | On the right |
| Guede: | I went down that road |
| Pros. Mignini: | Via Ulisse Rocchi |
| Guede: | Going down, I went down just to waste a bit of time and I went down and there I bumped into Philip. Philip was already speaking with a girl, I didn’t disturb him. |
| Profazio: | Who is Philip? |
| Guede: | Philip is the Austrian guy |
| Profazio: | Do you know where he lives? |
| Attorney: | Alex should be a certain Alex Crudo |
| Guede: | Yes, Crudo |
| Pros. Mignini: | Alex Crudo |
| Attorney: | Who lives up the steps |
| Napoleoni: | On Via Bartolo |
| Guede: | He lives together with his sister |
| Avvocato | Philip should be a certain Philip Malley however on this… |
| Pros. Mignini: | It seems an Anglo-Saxon name |
| Guede: | He’s Austrian |
| Attorney: | He’s Austrian however on the second one, on the surname of the second one, I’m not certain. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Alright |
| Attorney: | However he knows Alex Crudo very well |
| Guede: | Philip didn’t live in the center, he lived in a, a hotel but now I can’t remember the name, it’s outside Perugia |
| Profazio: | Eh but where? Do you remember the hotel? |
| Guede: | I find it difficult to explain |
| Attorney: | If it can be of help a certain, a guy that they call MJ knows this Philips very well |
| Guede: | MJ is an Israeli guy |
| Attorney: | Who is Israeli and probably the boyfriend of Crudo’s sister |
| Guede: | Yes, Crudo’s |
| Attorney: | We can give details in order to locate him because we don’t… maybe his name is Malley but now I don’t know for certain |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood… so you met… there you met this… |
| Guede: | Philip… |
| Pros. Mignini: | This Philip |
| Guede: | No I went down there, I saw Philip was talking with a girl and I left him alone, I went down a litter further |
| Napoleoni: | Did you greet him? Did he see you? |
| Guede: | Later… later I greeted him because I went down and as I did, where there is the Tana dell’Orso, a little higher up if I’m not mistaken, there’s a kebab takeaway |
| Napoleoni: | On the right opposite |
| Guede: | I entered the kebab takeaway and in front of me there were two girls that were ordering, then after that I ordered and while I was ordering I went outside and I allowed Philip to see me because going down he was with his back to me and he didn’t see me and after that he said he was talking with this girl and he would come down… while I had already ordered and anyway I was holding the kebab sandwich, Philip came down, we talked, we talked and after that I said to Philip “see you later” but not meaning anything by it |
| Pros. Mignini: | I understand |
| Guede: | I told him “first I have to see someone” and there Philip made a joke of it… a guy? I said to him “no a girl” for things that had happened a few days earlier however… and after that I said to him that I would see him later |
| Pros. Mignini: | In other words, what had happened, let me understand |
| Guede: | No because we have always spent an evening there and |
| Pros. Mignini: | With this Philip |
| Guede: | No with other guys and I slept, I said to Philip that I had slept with these guys and he cracked some jokes… |
| Pros. Mignini: | He cracked some jokes |
| Guede: | Yes, like that |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so you said good-bye |
| Guede: | And I said to him that we would see each other later however in a generic way |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | After that I went down again, after I had ordered the kebab and a drink, I went down and I went towards the house |
| Pros. Mignini: | At what time? |
| Guede: | Eh… there I believe I had asked Philip the time and so I think it was 8:26… 8:27… approximately, now here the accuracy… |
| Napoleoni: | Didn’t you use a watch? |
| Guede: | Eh? |
| Napoleoni: | Didn’t you use a watch? |
| Guede: | No, I didn’t like wearing a watch, I didn’t have this habit… and I went towards… presuming that it was half past eight… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Excuse me, one thing, excuse me but hadn’t Meredith given you her cell phone number? Her number |
| Guede: | No, I didn’t have Meredith’s number… I had never… even though I had loads of numbers of lots of people I never had the need because I would see each time who was going out |
| Napoleoni: | Rudy, but what number did you have that day? On 31 October what cell phone number did you have with you? |
| Guede: | No, that day I didn’t have any cell phone |
| Napoleoni: | You didn’t have one? |
| Guede: | No, I didn’t have one |
| Napoleoni: | On the first and the 31st? |
| Guede: | I didn’t even have one.. I didn’t have one… I’m sure of it |
| Napoleoni: | You didn’t have a cell phone with you |
| Guede: | Yes, yes I’m certain for what happened |
| Pros. Mignini: | Around half past eight |
| Napoleoni: | If you want to tell us about it |
| Guede: | Yes I can recount it without problems. Seeing as, and this is something that happened before these days, that I found myself in a nursery school in Milan and here I should… basically I had gone to Milan |
| Pros. Mignini: | When was this? |
| Guede: | On the 24th if I’m not wrong |
| Pros. Mignini: | Of October |
| Guede: | Of October, I had gone to Milan because it was a friend’s birthday that I had got to know in Milan, anyway of a guy that I knew and I went to… because there was this party and we were to go dancing together and I was to spend a few days in Milan. Then it happened that the last day which would be between the night of 26 and 27, I found myself basically, well I couldn’t stay at this friend’s house and also because we had gone to the discotheque and there I lost sight of him… what did I think? I said to myself I’ll go to Milan Central Station and wait for the train. However it must have been about two… And so stupidly what did I do? I met… I was there and naively I spoke with anybody and I met this South American person and I explained my problem that here in Milan even the one star hotels cost so much and this person said to me “it’s dangerous to say here the night at the Central Station, I work in a place and you can stay there until the morning that way you are safe” however you have to give me 20 Euros. I gave him this money. He took me to this, in this that turned out to be a nursery school… when I saw it… I naively said “ok I’ll stay here” and I stayed there until the next morning and this person had said to me “in the morning I’ll come don’t worry and then you can leave.” However then in the morning I saw this lady and a child and some men, I explained everything to the lady, how things had happened, and I said to the lady to call the Police. Then the Police came who then seized my cell phone and computer. |
| Napoleoni: | Was the cell phone yours Rudy? |
| Guede: | The cell phone wasn’t mine, it wasn’t mine… in the sense that I hadn’t bought it… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Do you remember the number? |
| Guede: | My SIM number yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | The one they seized in Milan |
| Guede: | The SIM was mine but not the cell phone |
| Napoleoni: | Can you tell us the number of the SIM |
| Guede: | 329.1819627 and from that moment I never had a cell phone again |
| Napoleoni: | Sorry Rudy, this SIM card, do you remember when you used it? |
| Guede: | Since a long time… it was actually in my name… |
| Attorney: | Did you already have it in Lecco? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes… I also had it when I was with Veronica… I had a girl friend from Milan… so for months… many months |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so go on… |
| Profazio: | One second, how did you both enter the nursery school? |
| Guede: | With the keys, yes yes… He opened the nursery school and he said to me “you can stay here without problems” |
| Attorney: | So he opened the nursery school for you, not just the building |
| Guede: | Yes, yes |
| Napoleoni: | Was this person a woman or a man |
| Guede: | A man… a man… |
| Napoleoni: | Italian? |
| Guede: | No South American… and in fact when the lady saw me there I also… I believed that it was the South American and instead I found myself in front of this lady, I explained and said “call the Police, there’s no problem” I gave an explanation for why I was there… and from that moment I don’t have a cell phone any more |
| Pros.Mignini: | Let’s go back to around half past eight, you head towards via della Pergola |
| Guede: | Yes, towards via della Pergola |
| Pros.Mignini: | Was there … how were the streets? Deserted or there were people… |
| Guede: | Well I noticed something when I went there… some cars were passing at that time but not many in the end, however I noticed that there was the… from the gate of that house there’s a space like this and the road goes like this and there was a parked car with its headlights on and there were two people inside this car. Outside this car, a little ahead of it… |
| Pros.Mignini: | What car was it? |
| Guede: | The model, I wouldn’t know however it was like those cars like the Open Bianca or Micra, those small ones… |
| Napoleoni: | White? |
| Guede: | The car was white |
| Pros.Mignini: | And where was it, inside the gate |
| Guede: | Outside |
| Pros.Mignini: | Ah, outside… |
| Attorney: | Near the garbage bins? |
| Guede: | Yes, I think so |
| Napoleoni: | Up from the gate or near? |
| Profazio: | Near the garbage bins |
| Guede: | This is the car, this is the road to the gate and I passed there as the headlights shone on me |
| Napoleoni: | Did you see who was in there [the car] |
| Guede: | I saw two people in the front seats, in the front seats |
| Pros.Mignini: | So it was parked in the direction of… |
| Guede: | Towards the gate, it lit up the gate and ahead of this car there was this thing that I noticed that anyway then I didn’t take notice, there was this, how can I put it, this idiot, that I’ve seen several times on Corso Garibaldi. Every time I went up or came down I would see this person there and I saw him there that evening, standing there. |
| Pros.Mignini: | What’s his name? |
| Guede: | I don’t know, he was an idiot |
| Pros.Mignini: | Can you describe him? |
| Guede: | Describe him now would be a bit difficult… he was tall… |
| Pros.Mignini: | How tall was he? |
| Guede: | He will have been 1.86 metres?… approximately |
| Napoleoni: | Tall |
| Attorney: | But if I may ask, if we show you a photo would you be able… |
| Napoleoni: | Italian, Rudy? |
| Guede: | Eh I think… basically of Moroccan, these… immigrants that I often see on Corso Garibaldi |
| Napoleoni: | And more or less he was in front of the rubbish bins? |
| Guede: | A bit ahead of the car, he was there motionless as if he was waiting for somebody, like this… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So there was this guy and |
| Guede: | And the car |
| Pros. Mignini: | And the car with two people inside |
| Guede: | With two people inside, I didn’t take much notice at… I noticed but I didn’t pay any attention to it and I entered, what we could call the yard, of the residence |
| Pros. Mignini: | Excuse me, does this Moroccan know you? |
| Guede: | I’ve seen him |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did he wave to you? |
| Guede: | No, I have to say absolutely not because from the appearance that he has, it’s not an appearance… |
| Napoleoni: | He’s a vagrant |
| Guede: | Eh yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so you entered |
| Guede: | I entered |
| Pros. Mignini: | Were the lights on? |
| Guede: | No I entered and the lights were not on, anyway I knocked |
| Napoleoni: | How was the gate? |
| Guede: | It was open, it was open |
| Napoleoni: | Both? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes it was open… and I … |
| Profazio: | What did you knock on? |
| Guede: | On the door, I entered the yard, I went to the door and I knocked |
| Profazio: | Which door? |
| Guede: | Meredith’s, above |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you knock with your hands, like this? |
| Guede: | Yes with my hands |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then? |
| Guede: | And after that anyway when returning… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Because nobody answered |
| Guede: | Nobody answered and going back there I saw Meredith… Meredith arrived |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes she was arriving |
| Guede: | Yes she had already entered |
| Pros. Mignini: | Were there still, was that guy still there? |
| Guede: | Well that guy from the gate you can’t see if he’s there… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah… so you didn’t look to see if had stayed there |
| Guede: | No |
| Pros. Mignini: | And the car? |
| Guede: | However in the meantime the car had gone away… it wasn’t there any more… it wasn’t there any more |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah so there was nobody there any more… |
| Guede: | There was nobody there any more |
| Pros. Mignini: | Meredith arrives |
| Guede: | Meredith arrives |
| Pros. Mignini: | How was she dressed? |
| Guede: | Meredith was wearing a jacket, a jacket but more than a jacket, I think something made of cloth not a proper jacket, she had a bag with her |
| Pros. Mignini: | What? |
| Guede: | And the bag was a bag like this… I mean I glimpsed it anyway she had a bag … |
| Napoleoni: | What type? A Hand-bag, a shoulder-bag, what type? |
| Guede: | No a bag that she held like this |
| Pros. Mignini: | A shoulder bag |
| Attorney: | On the shoulder |
| Guede: | However it wasn’t a small bag, it was big |
| Pros. Mignini: | You have to describe it… because there is the recording, if we talk like this we don’t understand… we see you but the recording… |
| Guede: | She carried it on her shoulder however it wasn’t a small bag |
| Napoleoni: | Do you remember its color? |
| Guede: | I believe the bag was brown |
| Napoleoni: | And Meredith’s jacket? |
| Guede: | I wouldn’t be able to tell you the color as I didn’t pay attention to it, I mean I didn’t take notice of the color … I wouldn’t be able to tell you, I could get it wrong… |
| Napoleoni: | You mustn’t say what you don’t remember |
| Guede: | And she had, it wasn’t closed this… she had a white top on and her jeans were a light color and she was wearing some shoes anyway that were, if I’m not mistaken, Puma, if I’m not mistaken |
| Napoleoni: | Do you remember the color of the Puma [shoes]? |
| Guede: | If I’m not mistaken, black, light pink if I’m not mistaken |
| Attorney: | The doctor asked you if, when Meredith came down, if you saw anybody there, anyway did you hear if anybody was there? |
| Guede: | Outside? |
| Attorney: | You have always said that above the car park… |
| Guede: | Ah yes because when Meredith arrived here’s why I say… |
| Profazio: | Where did she arrive from? |
| Guede: | She came down… I saw her |
| Profazio: | No, she came down, you have to explain it properly… |
| Guede: | From the gate… she entered the yard, let’s say, as I said to my attorneys I hope the video cameras adjacent to the car park are working… or that they were working that evening because when Meredith arrived, in that moment above the car park and in any case if there’s a person up there you can hear it even if speaking with a normal voice and there were, in that moment, some people up there. There in the car park. |
| Profazio: | How many? |
| Guede: | We heard someone locking their car, someone else talking normally |
| Attorney: | In the open-air part, in other words |
| Guede: | Yes above, the top part… |
| Napoleoni: | The car park above |
| Profazio: | [incomprehensible] |
| Guede: | There was me and Meredith |
| Profazio: | So both of you |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right so there was somebody there that was… |
| Guede: | There were some people |
| Pros. Mignini: | A question, do you know the tramp in Piazza Griamana?… There’s a tramp who hangs about Piazza Grimana near the kiosk |
| Guede: | I have to say with all honesty I’ve seen more than one in Piazza Grimana |
| Pros. Mignini: | One that has a hat a bit… long beard… |
| Guede: | I’ve often noticed the kiosk, the bench, I’ve often seen a tramp yes… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right, that evening did you see him? |
| Guede: | No |
| Pros. Mignini: | Another thing, that evening were there…, did you see the buses for the discotheques? |
| Guede: | Well in the previous evenings I saw them |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right which bus… what color? |
| Guede: | But we’re not speaking of that evening? |
| Pros. Mignini: | No |
| Guede: | I saw white buses… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So the evening, when did you see them, the evening of 31? |
| Guede: | No but also previous evenings |
| Pros. Mignini: | Also previous evenings |
| Guede: | Also on previous evenings I saw various buses that, if I’m not wrong, were going to the various discotheques in Perugia |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood |
| Napoleoni: | And did you see any buses on the evening of 31? |
| Guede: | Of the 31st? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Of the 31st |
| Guede: | I wouldn’t be able to say, it could be yes and it could be no… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ok, let’s go on then… |
| Napoleoni: | And the evening of the 1st … |
| Guede: | On the evening of the 1st I didn’t see any buses and so in fact Meredith and I heard that there were some people up above that were talking and I don’t know… |
| Attorney: | It’s enough that you say you heard some people |
| Guede: | And Meredith arrived and she asked me what I was doing, I said no, I came by and I haven’t been waiting long and then we started to talk |
| Pros. Mignini: | This was inside the house |
| Guede: | No outside |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ah outside |
| Guede: | We were still outside… we started to talk and in the meantime however with her seeing me there in that moment it would also have occurred to me to ask myself why, then after we started to talk |
| Attorney: | So Meredith didn’t get a fright, she didn’t scream or anything? |
| Guede: | No, no absolutely not |
| Attorney: | Because if she had screamed those above would have heard it |
| Guede: | And talking, anyway just a normal thing, she opened the door, she took her keys from the bag, she opened the door |
| Pros. Mignini: | And there was nobody in the house |
| Guede: | Everything was switched off in the house, everything was switched off, in any case when entering she said the same thing in English. I’ll say it in Italian as you usually say when someone enters “oh is anybody home? I’ve arrived” and anyway the other rooms were closed. |
| Pros. Mignini: | They were closed |
| Guede: | Yes and nobody answered anyway it was completely dark and then with the lights on she headed towards her bedroom, in the meantime as I had eaten a kebab I had become quite thirsty and I asked her while she headed towards her bedroom for a drink, if I could have a drink of something and she said go ahead, make yourself at home. And I drank a fruit juice and some water. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And where was it, in the fridge? |
| Guede: | In the fridge. In the fridge. I drank straight from the bottle because, in part for bad manners, with extreme bad manners to try not to… I drank there in a rush, after I put everything back in its place |
| Napoleoni: | What does it mean, put everything back in its place? Explain it properly? |
| Guede: | I opened the fridge |
| Napoleoni: | You helped yourself |
| Guede: | Yes I helped myself because in the meantime she was… |
| Napoleoni: | Eh explain it properly |
| Guede: | She went to her bedroom, I had something to drink, the fruit juice, the water and after I put it back in the fridge |
| Napoleoni: | Both the fruit juice and the water? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Napoleoni: | You didn’t finish the fruit juice? |
| Guede: | No no I drank just enough to quench my thirst |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you see any knives in the kitchen? |
| Guede: | No no… |
| Pros. Mignini: | You did not look? |
| Guede: | No, I didn’t look |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ok let’s go on |
| Napoleoni: | Had you drunk earlier? |
| Guede: | Yes at the kebab place I had bought a drink |
| Napoleoni: | Did you drink beer? What did you drink? |
| Guede: | No, no that evening the only drink that I drank was the bottle of Fanta that I bought from the guy in the kebab bar and I still hadn’t had any alcohol, absolutely |
| Pros. Mignini: | What time was this? |
| Guede: | I think that from the moment that I saw Meredith it would have been about twenty past nine… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Twenty past nine eh? |
| Guede: | Approximately |
| Attorney: | Here the minutes are of particular importance… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh I know… Meredith goes to her bedroom |
| Guede: | In the meantime Meredith goes to her bedroom and I was there anyway I had finished the drink until the moment that, here we are talking about moments that it’s difficult for me… until the moment when Meredith complains… complains, from the kitchen/lounge which was all one room I headed towards her bedroom and I ask what has happened and I see that she was, however, a bit angry, very angry and she was angry because, I saw with my own eyes that she had, she complained pointing to the draw, she complained that the money wasn’t there anymore. From that I deduced that she had money in that drawer |
| Pros. Mignini: | Which drawer was this? |
| Guede: | Basically there’s the bed, this is the bed and there’s a bedside table, the bedside table where you put the lampshade or books on top |
| Napoleoni: | Near the bed |
| Guede: | Near the bed and there was… and she indicated that there was money missing |
| Pros. Mignini: | And did you ask her how much money was missing? |
| Guede: | I didn’t ask her how much money was missing however given her animated manner, I mean she was angry, I think it was a lot |
| Pros. Mignini: | A lot |
| Guede: | Yes, and in doing so… at a certain point she started complaining about Amanda. She started to complain about Amanda and I said to her “but wait, it could also have been one of the other girls” and however she insisted in going… I saw this hostility towards Amanda because she said No, it was her… |
| Napoleoni: | Eh what did she say, tell us |
| Guede: | Eh she said that basically “that druggie” in other words she was a bit angry |
| Pros. Mignini: | No no every word that she said, try to remember them |
| Guede: | That drugged up shit I can’t stand her any more… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Tell us what she said there, there’s nothing wrong … |
| Attorney: | Whatever you can remember |
| Napoleoni: | Even the swear words… |
| Guede: | The thing that stayed with me, that drugged up shit and she was convinced that Amanda had stolen her money, so I said “but wait it could have been one of the others” however I saw that she wasn’t as hostile towards other people and so what did we do? I said to her well before we can be sure, it could have been also a burglar… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Of course |
| Guede: | So I said let’s check the other rooms and see if somebody has entered… we both checked all rooms, the bedrooms, the bathrooms |
| Pros. Mignini: | They were closed… so the bedrooms were open |
| Guede: | The bedrooms were open |
| Pros. Mignini: | All open |
| Guede: | They were open, one, I don’t know if it… there’s the fridge… and there’s a bathroom and there’s a bedroom |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | It was closed |
| Pros. Mignini: | It’s the bedroom of |
| Profazio: | Looking towards the fridge, with your face to the fridge where is the bedroom? |
| Guede: | There’s a fridge |
| Profazio: | If you face the fridge where is the bedroom? |
| Guede: | It’s opposite |
| Pros. Mignini: | Excuse me, entering [the flat] it’s the first on the right |
| Guede: | Yes entering there is the bathroom and there is a bedroom… |
| Pros. Mignini: | On the right, it’s not the bedroom on the left |
| Guede: | No, no no it was closed, the only one that was closed… |
| Pros. Mignini: | On the other hand, the one on the left was open |
| Guede: | Yes it was open |
| Pros. Mignini: | But was there anything strange about it, broken glass |
| Guede: | No we verified that there was nothing… no break-in, nothing, nothing abnormal. And there seeing that everything was in order, because everything was in order she continued to complain about Amanda… then she started to say, while talking it came out that she couldn’t take any more of her bringing guys home |
| Pros. Mignini: | Amanda |
| Guede: | Yes, her behavior in the house. At this point I told her to calm down |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you ask her why, who she brought… did you ask anything else? |
| Guede: | No, who she brought no, I didn’t ask who she brought back however I tried to calm her, to make her reason |
| Pros. Mignini: | She was very angry |
| Guede: | Yes, she was angry, very angry and from this I deduce that the money that was missing wasn’t a small amount |
| Pros. Mignini: | It was a lot |
| Guede: | And I tried to calm her down in fact she calmed down when I said to her, I cracked a joke and I said to her “don’t get angry otherwise you’ll get wrinkles” in other words… you are a beautiful girl… then anyway she eventually calmed down and we talked about… we started to talk and at that point we had already moved to the kitchen/lounge and in talking we could, and she still continued complaining about Amanda, that she couldn’t stand her, that she was messy, that she wasn’t a tidy girl basically when it came to for example cleaning the bathroom… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Meaning what… |
| Guede: | Meaning that she left objects about and if you live with a person tidiness is obligatory basically and talking and talking anyway we changed position, she calmed down a bit and we started to get, how can I say, intimate… but not intimacy but let’s say affectionate intimacy. Personal stuff… then well we each started to ask questions, I started to ask her, I dunno, about her life to get to know her because I repeat the reason I went there was because she was a pretty girl that anyway I wanted to get to know her not only just as a friend… |
| Attorney: | Excuse me Rudy when she spoke to you about her life did she tell you anything of particular that you can report that perhaps earlier seemed insignificant and you didn’t mention it but now… |
| Guede: | At a certain point we moved on from that thing that had happened and we started to talk, in other words I spoke of her, of my life that could be familiar because I, in the end as a girl my mother, I don’t know her and talking with her, I don’t know her, with my father I have had some problems however in the end I remember this thing, I said to Meredith despite everything I’m a lucky guy because I have so many mothers. And in response to these words I saw Meredith a bit sad in that she said to me “at least you have many mothers however I have only one and I’m scared of losing her” and I repeat that still speaking with Meredith in English I said “but why are you saying this” and she told me about an illness that her mother had, in English, I’m speaking in English but not fluently and from this, from this thing that she said to me I deduced that the mother had cancer of the kidneys and I saw she was very sad, very sad because this thing that she was telling me was very personal and very…, that anyway affected her… |
| Attorney: | The illness of the cancer of the kidneys is a deduction of yours? |
| Guede: | No because she give it a specific name in English |
| Attorney: | You believe that she said this but we don’t know if it’s true or not, basically |
| Guede: | I believe it was, from how I interpreted… |
| Pros. Mignini: | This is how he understood it… |
| Guede: | We always spoke in English and in English she talked of this illness, I mean [incomprehensible] now I don’t remember if she had a cancer of the kidneys, however she was very down… anyway it wasn’t something like saying your mother has a fever in other words… she was very upset |
| Napoleoni: | Listen Rudy while you were talking, you told me earlier that earlier she had looked for this money, when she looked for this money she looked for a purse with money or she just searched for money? If you understood this thing… |
| Guede: | No, I should mention perhaps another thing I had forgotten, she, about the drawer, did she only look in the drawer to see what had happened? When I tried to calm her down at a certain point she said “let me check something” she headed to Amanda’s bedroom, which is right next to hers and I saw her open a… like a desk for studying, she opened a drawer and said, she said to me… she had another doubt that it had been Amanda because she said “I bet she went to get drugged up” because living together apparently before the troubles between them each knew where the other kept their money… and so she went into Amanda’s bedroom, she looked in a drawer and then she said to me… |
| Napoleoni: | Did she also look for credit cards, for bancomat cards or just… |
| Guede: | No, nothing like this happened |
| Napoleoni: | Do you remember is she sent a message to her bank? |
| Guede: | Well that evening she didn’t use a cell phone. That evening Meredith didn’t use a cell phone. |
| Napoleoni: | She didn’t touch a cell phone while she was with you, you are certain of this |
| Guede: | I’m certain yes |
| Napoleoni: | She didn’t send any messages |
| Guede: | We were together there talking, if she had used a cell phone I would certainly say so |
| Napoleoni: | Did she start the washing machine while she was with you? Do you remember if she did the laundry? |
| Guede: | No, when we entered it was all switched off |
| Pros. Mignini: | All switched off |
| Guede: | After that some time passed, anyway I consoled her |
| Pros. Mignini: | Would it have been about ten, half past ten? |
| Guede: | Eh here… approximately |
| Pros. Mignini: | Tell us what happened next |
| Guede: | After that I got closer to her but just a normal thing, normal, like this normal, so normal that I have difficulty even expressing it because… |
| Attorney: | No, no tell us, tell us |
| Guede: | We got close and in fact thinking back to the evening of 31 where anyway we had, we had been together, we kissed each other and we kissed each other but it was the ice-breaker |
| Pros. Mignini: | On the lips |
| Guede: | Yes on the mouth and we kissed each other and then it was such a natural thing, so normal that at a certain point I find it difficult to, I dunno… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Tell us what happened… |
| Guede: | We touched each other, we caressed each other until I fingered her and at that point she asked if I had a condom and in that moment I realized that perhaps, I think we both realized, that we had gone a bit too far … I mean we didn’t really know each other… I mean we went a bit too far and at that point we … I mean |
| Pros. Mignini: | Interrupted |
| Guede: | We got dressed immediately anyway… we got ready and we talked a while… and I had a bit of a stomach ache |
| Attorney: | You dressed, in other words you were nude or… |
| Guede: | I’ll explain, I had pulled my trousers down, Meredith had also pulled her trousers down and we touched each other on the intimate parts, at that point we realized that… |
| Napoleoni: | Where? In the lounge or the bedroom? |
| Guede: | No we were still in the lounge, in the kitchen/lounge |
| Napoleoni: | Were you on your feet? You have to explain it to us |
| Guede: | There’s a table, there were two chairs so when I arrived there I was wearing a yellow hooded sweater with red and blue writing on it and so there were these chairs, I placed it there and then also underneath I was wearing a thin Adidas sweater with gold stripes on it, with a gold logo. So we were there I placed everything there… however we were never nude, I had a beige T-shirt on with the logo of Eco United and the dollar logo and she had this white vest on and we just pulled down a little our trousers and at that point we realized that maybe it was a bit exaggerated |
| Attorney: | Did you also touch her breasts… kisses, what… |
| Guede: | Yes, we were… |
| Attorney: | The next, everything… |
| Guede: | Yes, we were there, there were these chairs moved out of position and the table… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then? |
| Guede: | After that realizing that … we realized that I, I and also her anyway we remained there we talked a while also of the evening we’d had and then at a certain point I had a need to go to the bathroom because anyway the food I had eaten, the kebab, had given me a stomach ache, and I headed to the bathroom and then… |
| Pros. Mignini: | The bathroom on the right |
| Guede: | The fridge, where the fridge is. Anyway I went to the bathroom and in any case after I would have gone. This with the ifs I can’t… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, yes |
| Guede: | I went to the bathroom because I had an urgent need. It was Meredith herself that told me to go in that bathroom. And in the meantime anyway she headed for… I don’t know if she was going to her bedroom or if she also went to the bathroom, however I presume that she went to the bathroom, anyway we had fondled each other and in the moment that I go to the bathroom… |
| Napoleoni: | Did she put her clothes back on? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes she got dressed because we hadn’t taken all our clothes off |
| Napoleoni: | Well she had pulled down her trousers |
| Guede: | Yes, yes exactly… I go to the bathroom in that moment and Meredith was still there a while in the lounge… she was heading off, when I hear the doorbell ring. I hear the doorbell ring, anyway I had already entered the bathroom and anyway I hear Meredith’s voice who says “who is it?” she asked who it was. I don’t hear the answer from the other person however while entering, while entering Meredith says to this person “we need to talk” and she says it in English in a not very calm voice. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Upset |
| Guede: | Upset and the voice that I heard was an English female voice and it seems to me to be Amanda’s voice. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Amanda Knox’s |
| Guede: | Yes, Amanda Knox and at that point I… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And what did she say, this other voice |
| Guede: | When Meredith said “we need to talk” the other voice said… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Can you repeat it? |
| Guede: | Shall I say it in English? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | “We need to talk” and the other female voice that seemed to me to be the voice of Amanda Knox says “What’s happening”? What has happened… after that for me it was a… for me, I mean if at my house a friend of mine comes and I know there is a friend I don’t concern myself, I went to the bathroom without worrying, I remained in the bathroom and I have the habit, whether I’m at my house or a friend’s house, anyway to listen to music when I go to the bathroom. I had my iPod with me, my iPod and I switched it on and I listened to the.. I put on the earphones. I put the volume at maximum as we say and… |
| Napoleoni: | Do you always have your iPod with you? |
| Guede: | I say I had the iPod with me because now I don’t have it any more and then I will explain why… otherwise I always had it on me |
| Napoleoni: | Explain where you kept it for example |
| Guede: | I always had it in my pocket when I went out, in my pocket also when I went to Merlin’s or to… |
| Napoleoni: | That evening where did you have it when you went to the bathroom? |
| Guede: | I had it in my pocket… |
| Napoleoni: | Did you lock the door? |
| Guede: | No, absolutely not |
| Napoleoni: | You closed the door |
| Pros. Mignini: | You only just closed the door |
| Guede: | And I had the iPod in my pocket and I switched it on and I put it on for the time I was in the bathroom… listening to the iPod now I couldn’t tell you for how long I was in the bathroom but I can tell you I listened to nearly three pieces of music, three songs… and they are songs of a type that I like and that anyway last a while… Until at a certain point I heard a scream that was louder than the music that I was listening to… so and at that point I became worried because anyway it was a scream that I heard and at that point I took off my iPod, the earphones, and as quickly as I could I tried to go to see what was going on. Anyway it was a very loud scream. |
| Napoleoni: | Did it continue over time? |
| Guede: | No, it didn’t continue over time however I heard it clearly… loud, even though I had the volume high I heard this scream which wasn’t a normal thing. And in that moment I tried to leave the bathroom as quickly as I could so much so that I didn’t even think of flushing the toilet and another thing that seemed so strange when I went into the bathroom the kitchen/lounge, the room was fully lit and as I left the bathroom it was all switched off. The light was off while when I go in the bathroom it was on. And in that moment anyway I head towards Meredith’s bedroom, I enter right into the corridor and I see this male figure, he was a male in front of the door and there was the lamp shade inside, the lighting was dim, in other words from the lamp shade that was lighting the whole area which was however weak. At that point I say “what has happened?” and while saying this I move a little forward and see Meredith, however, on the floor. She was on the floor between the bedside table, the wardrobe was located in a bit of an odd way, at an angle. While talking and saying these things and immediately seeing her on the floor, I see this male figure who turns so quickly with… like this he makes this movement, he was turned with his back to me and he makes this movement… And in the left hand he had something sharp. Instinctively I put my hands in front of me… |
| ? | You remember that he held something in his left hand? |
| Pros. Mignini: | With the left? |
| Guede: | Yes because… |
| Napoleoni: | Are you certain of this? |
| Guede: | I’m certain because I saw this person that made this movement and instinctively I put my hands, my right hand in front and I tried to back off and escape and this person tried to strike me |
| Pros. Mignini: | Can you describe this person? |
| Guede: | This person, I… |
| Pros. Mignini: | It was a man |
| Guede: | It was a man and seeing as the place wasn’t very well lit I have this difficulty to come up with a description, basically however I can remember some specifics |
| Pros. Mignini: | Such as? |
| Guede: | This person was wearing a hat however… he had this hat however the cheekbones of this person left an impression on me |
| Napoleoni: | What do you mean by hat, Rudy? |
| Guede: | He was wearing a type of hat |
| Napoleoni: | Of wool? |
| Guede: | Yes, a type of wool |
| Napoleoni: | Color? |
| Guede: | It was a white color with a red stripe and what stayed with me in particular were the cheekbones of this person because they were pronounced |
| Pros. Mignini: | How tall was this person? |
| Guede: | He wasn’t taller than me… |
| Pros. Mignini: | How tall are you? |
| Guede: | I am 1.75… 76… metres tall |
| Pros. Mignini: | He was… how old would he be? |
| Guede: | Ehhh I think… he wasn’t elderly I’d say my age, in other words 24… |
| Napoleoni: | Describe him… describe what you remember |
| Guede: | He was a person that was a little smaller than me, a little but not much, he had as I said this hat and the thing that made an impression were his cheekbones and he had let’s say this lower jaw that was as if he had a double chin say and then his eyes… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so he was your age? |
| Guede: | Yes, thereabouts yes |
| Napoleoni: | White? |
| Guede: | Yes, he was Italian, I say Italian because I also heard this person speak |
| Napoleoni: | Did he wear spectacles? |
| Guede: | No, he didn’t have spectacles, I didn’t see spectacles |
| Pros. Mignini: | How did this person speak? |
| Guede: | He spoke Italian. |
| Attorney: | Explain |
| Guede: | Basically when I tried to back off this person, as I said, tried to strike me several times, they weren’t deep cuts however I’d say it seemed to be a scalpel because it was… with the slightest touch he cut me, he cut me and anyway I tried to escape and protect myself and I fell between the fridge and the table, I tried to get to the bathroom and from where I fell there was a chair, I took hold of this chair and I threw it … at which point this person hesitated in coming at me and he left through… anyway I presume he ran off |
| Pros. Mignini: | And Amanda? I mean the lady, the girl that had spoken, the voice… |
| Guede: | And in fact having come out the bathroom I only found this figure, there weren’t other people in the house… |
| Attorney: | He said in the previous interrogation that he fought for five or six minutes that maybe is not likely, he can clarify that maybe it was a mistake and that perhaps it was a few seconds… |
| Guede: | I replied to the question, I said that it was five minutes… but it happened in a flash |
| Pros. Mignini: | And what did this person say? |
| Guede: | Well I fell and when leaving, this person left and I heard this person’s voice saying “he’s black” and at that point I realized he was talking to somebody… because nobody responds or talks on their own and after that he said that he’s black, he said “I have found a black man, I have found the guilty one”… and at that point I heard the footsteps of more than one person |
| Napoleoni: | Did you hear voices that answered? |
| Guede: | No I heard only the voice… because it was right there… the moment he went outside there it all happened very quickly |
| Napoleoni: | Have you heard again the female voice that you identify as being probably Amanda’s? After that moment? |
| Guede: | After that moment… |
| Napoleoni: | Try to order your thoughts |
| Guede: | That person was speaking with somebody else however I didn’t hear very well the voice it was such a quick thing that he said, how can I say… as soon as he went out he said “he is black, I have found the black man the guilty one let’s go away” and he heard… |
| Napoleoni: | Did you hear this “let’s go away” |
| Guede: | Yes, yes… Yes, yes and I perceived even more the steps of more than one person that walked along the gravel path, of more than one person walking along the gravel path. More than one person. |
| Attorney: | How much time had passed since the scream? |
| Guede: | From the scream that I heard and when I left the bathroom? Very little time, I did things as quick as possible, so much so that I had to back off. Why did I fall? I fell because I hadn’t done up properly my trousers that all of a sudden dropped and I fell for that reason… I mean it was… hearing this scream I said “I’ll go to see what has happened” and so when I fell I heard these steps, seeing as I was on the floor and in front of me there was a room, a bedroom, I saw there was the window, it was open, anyway there was this window and it was visible also from the yard so my thought was to go and see if I could see anyone however I couldn’t see clearly. |
| Attorney: | Tell us what you saw… |
| Guede: | No, I saw the silhouette of a woman… here’s why I say I didn’t see clearly because I wouldn’t be able to |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where did you see the silhouette of the woman? |
| Guede: | Leaving the yard… Because from the window… |
| Napoleoni: | Just to understand, from the window of Filomena’s room? That was all intact, correct? |
| Guede: | It was all intact, you confirm… |
| Profazio: | The first room on the left when entering the house |
| Guede: | And I repeat |
| Profazio: | No, you have to answer me because it is being recorded |
| Napoleoni: | Seeing as nobody will see you Rudy, we are recording, you also have to explain the room properly in words… entering… |
| Guede: | I repeat, the same room that if a person is outside it’s the first window to be seen |
| Pros. Mignini: | So where did you see this woman? |
| Guede: | I saw her from a very long way away towards the gate and I repeat that… |
| Pros. Mignini: | You looked out of this window and you saw this person… |
| Guede: | To try to see if I could see [incomprehensible] that I had heard |
| Pros. Mignini: | How was this person dressed, this woman |
| Guede: | Eh this is my problem, I repeat I caught a glimpse because I couldn’t… however I saw this silhouette of a woman… |
| Pros. Mignini: | How tall was she? |
| Guede: | She would have been about 1 metre and 65, approximately… |
| Napoleoni: | Rudy did you recognized this woman? Did you recognize this woman? |
| Attorney: | Give us your impression |
| Guede: | I, yes |
| Napoleoni: | Well tell us who this girl was |
| Guede: | Amanda Knox |
| Pros. Mignini: | Amanda Knox that, then… that was running? Escaping? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | And was there anybody else with her? |
| Guede: | No I only saw this silhouette… and when I heard, when I heard the steps on the gravel I heard as if somebody went below |
| Pros. Mignini: | Below? |
| Guede: | Yes, below |
| Napoleoni: | You mean this person that you recognize as Amanda went out of the gate, you heard somebody else running |
| Guede: | Below |
| Pros. Mignini: | Below, running below then… |
| Guede: | As if taking the direction of the guys below |
| Pros. Mignini: | The house of the guys below |
| Napoleoni: | And then you heard someone come back up? … did you see any other silhouettes Rudy? |
| Guede: | No, no |
| Pros. Mignini: | Just these two |
| Guede: | Just these two after which I headed to Meredith’s bedroom |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you hear any noises of… like if somebody came up the steps? |
| Guede: | No, I didn’t hear… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So you went to Meredith |
| Guede: | I headed towards Meredith’s bedroom |
| Pros. Mignini: | How was she? What position was Meredith in? |
| Guede: | Meredith was on the floor with her face looking upwards… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | And the thing that I noticed in the impact of the moment was that she was bleeding from the right side… or rather from my right side, I saw that she was bleeding from this side and in that moment I had never seen such a thing in my life and I’d never witnessed a thing like this, the instinct I had was to head to the bathroom, in the bathroom that is adjacent to Meredith’s bedroom, I took a towel, I took a towel and I pressed it against her neck however in very little time this towel was drenched so I returned and I took another towel and I held it to her neck. Anyway Meredith’s impulsive reaction was to move and in trying to speak to me, I mean she tried to talk to me… she was trying to tell me something however… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you understand what she was trying to say? |
| Guede: | I didn’t understand well because in the same moment she was losing blood through her mouth and her speaking I …. I un… I he… in that moment, for what she had… in my head I could have heard AF… |
| Pros. Mignini: | AF… |
| Guede: | I tried to write that word on the wall because my hands were covered in blood, I didn’t try to get a pen and write on a sheet of paper, my instinct was to write it on the wall and I started to write on the wall after which anyway I didn’t manage to write it properly and I remained there holding her and I held the towel to her neck until at a certain point I didn’t see a reaction any more… I mean of moving… and… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did she try to say anything else? |
| Guede: | No, she said this… and she didn’t say it just once she repeated it… AF… AF… AF… AF… I tried to write it on the wall … I tried |
| Napoleoni: | Then? |
| Guede: | Then at a certain point |
| Pros. Mignini: | Was she nude? |
| Guede: | No, Meredith was dressed seeing as we were… she was dressed |
| Pros. Mignini: | She was dressed, how was she dressed, as you had previously seen her? |
| Guede: | Like when we were in the lounge, she was wearing the white top |
| Pros. Mignini: | She was wearing jeans |
| Guede: | She had on trousers, shoes |
| Napoleoni: | Was the top pulled up or normal? |
| Guede: | Normal… |
| Napoleoni: | You left her lying down like this |
| Guede: | Yes she had her shoes on, her jeans on… everything |
| Pros. Mignini: | The cushion? |
| Guede: | The cushion was… I ask myself this thing to try to understand, the cushion was on the bed when we entered together Meredith and I, it was on the bed, it wasn’t… there wasn’t all this mess that I then saw, it was all tidy |
| Napoleoni: | What was on top of the bed, do you remember Rudy? |
| Guede: | When we entered there was a dictionary on the bed, there was a dictionary, Meredith was, going into the house she left her bag on the bed and then there were books because when she arrived she had books with her |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen, entering Meredith’s bedroom on the right there was a small table… no? |
| Guede: | On the right there’s the desk, yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right, what did you see on this desk? |
| Guede: | Eh… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you notice… |
| Guede: | There were various objects |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you notice if there was Vaseline? |
| Guede: | No I didn’t notice that however there was Meredith’s computer… |
| Pros. Mignini: | You didn’t notice it |
| Guede: | No, no there were various objects however… |
| Napoleoni: | Was the duvet on Meredith’s bed, on top of it? |
| Guede: | It was all made up |
| Napoleoni: | Eh there was a duvet or there was a sheet |
| Guede: | No a duvet, a duvet |
| Pros. Mignini: | There was a duvet on the bed |
| Guede: | It was on the bed yes |
| Napoleoni: | What color? |
| Guede: | I see it as being red… I see it being red, I see a red duvet… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen, then there was… how was the wardrobe, with the doors open or closed |
| Guede: | It was all closed |
| Pros. Mignini: | All closed |
| Guede: | All closed. The wardrobe in Meredith’s bedroom was… I tell you that from the photos that I saw for the first time that I was questioned… there was a mess that wasn’t there when I left that house |
| Pros. Mignini: | I understand, it was all tidy |
| Guede: | It was all tidy… everything in order |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then what happened, you… when did you decide to leave |
| Guede: | When Meredith was no longer… at a certain point she… like, I don’t know how to define it, she had like… at a certain point it’s like she slipped away and in that moment I didn’t know what to do, so many thoughts came to mind, I didn’t know whether to go into the street and shout that something had happened, at a certain point I panicked and I said to myself “here no one will believe me” because I repeat, I had blood on my hands, I went down on my knee… when I placed the cushion, I had this left part of my foot, of the left knee anyway that had become drenched because I placed myself next to her trying to help her… I had so many thoughts come to my mind until at a certain point the thing which frightened me the most is that I heard from the floor below, or rather below the house, below as if someone was moving a table, a chair, that classic noise that you hear, and there I became frightened that I wouldn’t be believed about what had happened. |
| Pros. Mignini: | So you saw a female figure that you had… |
| Guede: | From a distance … |
| Pros. Mignini: | From a distance |
| Guede: | Looking out from the window |
| Pros. Mignini: | Who did it seem to be to you… basically did you recognize her? |
| Guede: | Not just for that but also for her voice… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Apart from the voice from before but when she was fleeing towards the gate did you recognized this person as Amanda? |
| Guede: | Yes as a silhouette yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Then there was someone else that had gone below |
| Guede: | I heard a noise as if someone had gone below |
| Attorney: | Who was going towards… |
| Pros. Mignini: | The apartment of the guys |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Attorney: | Towards the apartment of the guys or towards the road? |
| Guede: | No, towards the apartment of the guys was my perception… It was as if someone was moving… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, then you left |
| Guede: | Well indeed I left the house and anyway I headed towards my house. |
| Pros. Mignini: | What route did you take? |
| Guede: | I did, I left Meredith’s house and I took the steps, I mean, there are these steps |
| Pros. Mignini: | I understand, those alongside the court |
| Guede: | The basketball court |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood. Did you come across anybody? |
| Guede: | Well I can tell you that I went along the… there’s the basketball court, the road parallel to it and at that time there were some guys, now I wouldn’t be able to say if they were Chinese, however because usually at that time the Chinese play, even though it’s dark they are there and I saw these people with a basketball. |
| Pros. Mignini: | But anybody coming down the steps, did you… |
| Napoleoni: | Did you meet anybody? |
| Guede: | No, no |
| Pros. Mignini: | You don’t remember, and so you then went towards … |
| Guede: | Then what I did, well why did I do this? For fear, because I was all… the hands covered in blood, I would have preferred to go along Corso Garibaldi however seeing as there were so many people about at that time, because there are the bars, Pizza restaurants, the University, I don’t know if you know of the steps that descend to the side of the University that then go back up to the top. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | I took that route and I came out a bit further ahead of [illegible] after via Tedesca now I don’t remember exactly which road and then I headed to my house. On via del Canerino. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where did you wash yourself? |
| Guede: | Eh I went into my house and I headed, there’s a launderette where I live and there were some rags and I think, I don’t think I touched any of these rags and then after I’d washed my hands in the basin however… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen |
| Napoleoni: | Didn’t you take a shower? |
| Guede: | No, no |
| Pros. Mignini: | Do you remember which shoes you were wearing? |
| Guede: | I was wearing the green Adidas [shoes] that I had |
| Pros. Mignini: | Where are they? |
| Guede: | They should be at my house… |
| Napoleoni: | Are you sure Rudy? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes they should be at my house… |
| Napoleoni: | No, are you sure you were wearing the Adidas [shoes]? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes… I was wearing the green Adidas [shoes] |
| Pros. Mignini: | What size do you take? |
| Guede: | I wear size 45 and a half |
| Pros. Mignini: | A question, Meredith, when you saw Meredith who returned home, did she eat anything? |
| Guede: | No, she didn’t eat anything |
| Napoleoni: | Did she have a drink, did you notice if she got something from the fridge? |
| Guede: | Absolutely nothing, nothing at all |
| Napoleoni: | Are you sure? |
| Guede: | Yes, absolutely nothing |
| Napoleoni: | From… she didn’t eat anything with you? |
| Guede: | She didn’t touch anything |
| Attorney: | She didn’t eat anything in front of you |
| Guede: | She didn’t eat absolutely anything |
| Napoleoni: | And she also didn’t drink anything… |
| Guede: | No, no |
| Paciotti: | Rudy, excuse me, during the evening when you were both there, the cell phones that we talked about earlier, did you see them again after you had seen her on the floor? |
| Guede: | No |
| Paciotti: | The cell phones, did you see them anywhere? |
| Guede: | I tell you, in the moments before this all happened, after what I saw, if there had been a phone or a land line phone in the house I would certainly have called 188… |
| Paciotti: | So even after you had seen her like that you didn’t see any cell phones |
| Napoleoni: | So not even before |
| Guede: | No, not even before |
| Napoleoni: | You don’t remember Meredith’s mobile phones? |
| Guede: | No when we were in the lounge talking she didn’t use one, she didn’t make use of any cell phone because we talked… we talked… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So you returned home and you washed yourself. |
| Guede: | Yes I washed my hands but I didn’t take a shower |
| Pros. Mignini: | And then where did you go? |
| Guede: | I was a while at home however I couldn’t take it any more being at home because I kept seeing red, as if seeing… for what had happened to me even though I was supposed to go see the Spanish guys, instinctively I went to Alex’s house. I met up with Alex and now I can’t say whether I spent time at his house however I was with him, with Alex, Philip and [incomprehensible] I spent time with these people. |
| Napoleoni: | However, you don’t remember where? |
| Guede: | I was with them all evening in the center, I was with them, I mean, I went with them wherever they went. |
| Napoleoni: | You’re sure about this, that you were with them? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes… absolutely and then at… I’ve this memory then… I hope that if you verify this that when that evening I was with [incomprehensible], Philip and a guy whose name is Nicolas, at a certain point Alex, they were, they went to Domus’, Alex entered… it’s like they had previously kicked him out because he had argued with the bouncers of Domus, he had argued, and they wouldn’t let him enter again and so Alex, at a certain point disappeared… |
| Napoleoni: | Are you sure it was the night of the first of November? This that you are recounting? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes because after I stayed with Philip [incomprehensible] and Nicolas and after that with Philip we got in his car and we went to Velvet’s. At Velvet’s, I was there and at a certain point they put a wristband on me, I found myself wearing a blue wristband when we entered Velvet’s. |
| Napoleoni: | Afterwards, did you drink? |
| Guede: | I did everything they did… I was really bewildered like a robot… I couldn’t stand the idea of being on my own and I wasn’t able to find the strength to tell anybody what had happened, it was as if I wasn’t there and I think… you asked me if I drank and I think the answer is yes… I think so, but now I can’t remember what I drank… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen, did you have the chance to talk to Amanda again? |
| Guede: | No, no, no, no |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did anybody call you before you departed? |
| Guede: | No |
| Attorney: | From Perugia? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | No, I remember that on the 2nd I woke up and I went to Alex’s house because he was still the person that, in that moment… I mean I found… I couldn’t stand being on my own… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood |
| Guede: | After that, that day I was, on the 2nd I was still with them… I went where they went, then at a certain point I couldn’t stand it anymore and I’ll explain this thing about Germany to you. I have an aunt who lives in Lecco and I said to myself… the only person… because my aunt raised me since I was young not like my father, I’m closer in my relationship with my aunt and I said to myself “I’ll go to my aunt in Lecco, I’ll tell her what happened”, I mean I needed to talk to somebody. I took the train and I arrived in Florence Santa Maria Novella, Santa Maria Novella – Bologna then there was the ticket inspector, I headed for Florence and Milan but I only had a ticket for Bologna, Florence Bologna because I didn’t have the money and the ticket inspector made me get off if I’m not mistaken, at Modena or something like it, then I took the train and I arrived in Milan but I arrived in Milan in the middle of the night and at that time there were no more trains. I checked the timetable for Lecco, I thought it was for Lecco and I arrived in Austria and in Austria I went to Germany. It’s not that I wanted to go to Germany because I don’t know anybody there. In Germany I don’t talk German. And I found myself in Germany. Then in Germany… what happened… |
| Napoleoni: | So in the meantime I want to ask you Counsel if you ever had the chance to see Meredith’s bedroom from any photographs, I don’t know if you have seen it |
| Attorney: | Yes, yes we also have them here |
| Napoleoni: | Did you see Meredith with the duvet on top of her |
| Guede: | Yes I saw her that time |
| Napoleoni: | From the photos taken by the Scientific Police there was the bag on top of the bed, a leather bag, but was it the one that you say was a shoulder bag or was it another? |
| Guede: | I don’t remember, I would more than like to help but… |
| Napoleoni: | I want to ask you, when you tell us about seeing this guy inside the house, no? Certainly Italian from the description you give us, have you ever known Raffaele Sollecito in person? |
| Guede: | Raffaele Sollecito, before knowing who he was, from when I returned from Germany, I didn’t know of his existence |
| Napoleoni: | So you never saw him in person before… |
| Guede: | Never, never |
| Napoleoni: | Did you see him in photos? |
| Guede: | From when I then arrived here of course, the newspapers… |
| Napoleoni: | In television |
| Guede: | I’ve had the chance to see this person |
| Napoleoni: | After Meredith’s death, on that day you saw a guy that you didn’t know in the house, after that are you able to associate the person that you saw in the house with people you have seen in television, in photos, in newspapers, etc? |
| Guede: | Well this thing I say honestly, I’ve also been somewhat influenced by having seen some images of photos, however personally from my heart, yes I did find something of some people. |
| Napoleoni: | Tell us… with you having seen images on television, in newspapers etc, getting you to do a formal identity would be a waste of time. |
| Guede: | It’s a waste of time… yes… |
| Napoleoni: | So do you want to tell us something? |
| Guede: | I’d be willing to do an identikit on what I can remember of that evening of that person… |
| Attorney: | The officer is asking you another question: you saw that person, can you associate him to anybody else that you have seen afterwards or do you not feel able to? This is the question. |
| Guede: | If I have to be honest, I say, like I said to the lady I prefer to do an identikit of that image that was impressed in my mind that evening because the need to associate to somebody, I mean for me it would be a waste of time as the lady said. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen, but did he have a… but did he have a hood that was like it was a pullover? The extremity of a pullover, or not? |
| Guede: | A cap, I don’t know, those made of wool and there was this stripe, it made an impression on me, this red color that anyway with the light I was able to see the color. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Napoleoni: | I had asked him if after the crime he had associated the guy that he saw inside the house with someone that he then saw in the newspapers, in television, etc, etc, and he said yes but… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, explain it… |
| Guede: | As I said to the lady of course returning to Italy then having the television and reading the newspapers I saw certain photos and I also saw Sollecito’s photo. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Raffaele Sollecito |
| Guede: | A person I didn’t know existed |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes yes |
| Guede: | For that evening I have a fixed image however in order to see some photos and then identify someone… or to see some similarities, it influences me… |
| Pros. Mignini: | His stature could be the same? |
| Guede: | I wouldn’t know how tall he is |
| Pros. Mignini: | The stature… did it resemble Sollecito? |
| Guede: | I haven’t seen him, I’d have to have him in front of me |
| Pros. Mignini: | But haven’t you ever had him in front of you? |
| Guede: | Well initially he was turned … |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | I saw him from behind… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | Then when I asked what had happened I saw… he turned quickly and… |
| Pros. Mignini: | You said it was dark |
| Guede: | Yes it was dark only in the room, the room, Meredith’s bedroom was lit |
| Pros. Mignini: | At this point we suspend for a break until 13:10 |
| [interruption to the recording] | |
| Pros. Mignini: | The recording restarts at 13:20 ,so… you were in the bathroom. At a certain point the door bell rings |
| Guede: | I hear it ring |
| Pros. Mignini: | You hear it ring, how long did it ring for? |
| Guede: | I should clarify, I was going in the bathroom |
| Napoleoni: | He was going in the bathroom |
| Pros. Mignini: | You were going in the bathroom |
| Guede: | I was going in the bathroom |
| Pros. Mignini: | So you weren’t inside the bathroom… |
| Guede: | Eh… that bathroom |
| Pros. Mignini: | There’s an entrance area there… you were in the entrance area? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | And the door was open? |
| Guede: | It was still open… it’s a moment that to explain it is… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood so you were… you were entering the bathroom and you had the door open and you hear a ring |
| Guede: | I hear the doorbell ring, Meredith still hadn’t gone to the bathroom and says, and asks who’s there. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Who’s there |
| Guede: | However I don’t hear the response but I hear Meredith say “we need to talk “and the other person says “What’s happening?”. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And the voice is a female voice |
| Guede: | Which seemed to me to be of Amanda Knox… |
| Pros. Mignini: | But I would like to… from what you say… it seems that more than anything it seems to you… you are almost certain because you say it in such a way, when someone says “it seems to me…” eh here it’s an assertion… eh? It seems to me that it’s a rather precise assertion that you make and you are nodding… yes or no? Rudy. |
| Guede: | Well if I can… it seems because by now quite some time… so much time has passed since I heard that voice and I’m also willing to do a vocal identification or whatever is asked of me, to me it seems that it was the voice of Amanda. |
| Pros. Mignini: | It seems to you that indeed it was her? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | And the… and what does Meredith respond to this observation? She lets her enter… |
| Guede: | When Meredith says we need to talk and the other voice says what has happened |
| Pros. Mignini: | The other person had already entered then. |
| Guede: | Yes, yes she had already opened the door… |
| Pros. Mignini: | She had already opened |
| Guede: | And in those moments anyway I heard that voice that seemed to me to be the voice of Amanda Knox, for me as I explained earlier it was a normal thing. |
| Pros. Mignini: | She lived there… |
| Guede: | I didn’t concern myself about it, if it had been something else I would have been concerned, you know. |
| Pros. Mignini: | This makes one think that it seemed to you to be indeed her. |
| Guede: | Yes and I went in the bathroom |
| Pros. Mignini: | And so you went into the bathroom, you were unperturbed in any way |
| Guede: | Let’s say I was calm in a way, if I can give an example it’s as if I was at my house and I hear, I’m giving an example eh? My mother enters and so I don’t have to be worried… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right |
| Guede: | That’s why I went unperturbed to the bathroom. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Then you are, you start listening to the music in the bathroom and more or less you listened to 3 songs. |
| Guede: | Two and a half, let’s say |
| Pros. Mignini: | Two and a half songs. How long would a song be? |
| Guede: | Eh so… |
| Pros. Mignini: | How long… |
| Guede: | Normally a song lasts three minutes, two minutes… |
| Napoleoni: | Do you remember the songs? |
| Guede: | If I recall, the songs I listened to are, excuse me … I have to think about it… I listened to “Out My System” by Limbauau who is an artist… then I listened to “Chamillionair Dirty”… and “Chris Ross” that is a song by Lil John Gaylo, these are the pieces I listened to. |
| Pros. Mignini: | The moment you entered you started listening to them immediately. |
| Guede: | I loaded them because… on an iPod there is a sequence that you load. |
| Pros. Mignini: | I know… I know… |
| Guede: | I loaded it and as I listen to, there are 25 pieces that I listen to most often, I loaded that section and then I listened to the music. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Give us your approximate estimate, how much time passed? From the beginning to the moment that you loaded it? More or less. |
| Guede: | For me it’s at hand I can do it immediately. |
| Pros. Mignini: | No but I’m asking, then, the duration of the pieces |
| Guede: | Ah the pieces |
| Attorney: | From when you loaded it until when you heard the scream. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Up to the point you heard the scream |
| Paciotti: | You heard two songs and then half of the third |
| Guede: | Half way through the third song I heard this scream… so the… a piece lasts something like… five minutes… four… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right |
| Guede: | Anyway, hip hop music… |
| Pros. Mignini: | About ten minutes |
| Guede: | Yes more or less |
| Pros. Mignini: | About 10 minutes… not much more… and you hear the… you hear the scream… |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Was there anything before … did you hear anything before the scream? |
| Guede: | No because I… after putting on the earphones I could still hear however… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And what did you hear? |
| Guede: | Well a lot of talking, talking… but this is… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Woman’s voices? |
| Guede: | Yes, yes yes yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Always the same voice? |
| Guede: | Yes yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Always the same voice, the usual two voices |
| Guede: | Yes yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | So while you listened to the music they talked… |
| Guede: | I’ll explain it to you, I entered, I loaded it and anyway I heard talking and I put on the earphones, it was like this… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood… You didn’t …. |
| Paciotti: | Did you hear whether they closed the door when the first person entered? |
| Guede: | Eh, no not that, however I tell you that when that person left, that male figure, if the door is closed you have to open it, it was already as if it had been… not closed… |
| Paciotti: | Another thing, the person that then entered, did he not know of your presence there? |
| Guede: | So yes… as you have said because I don’t believe that Meredith had time to say that I was there so the person that entered didn’t know I was in the bathroom and in fact for me this thing that gave me some… how to say it, doubt, that this person says “he’s black… I’ve found a black man” when he leaves … “I’ve found the guilty one” let’s go. |
| Napoleoni: | Why? |
| Guede: | I don’t think that person saw me just like I didn’t see the, it could be that he didn’t… he didn’t recognized me. |
| Napoleoni: | That he didn’t know that you were… |
| Pros. Mignini: | That you were in the house… |
| Guede: | That I was in the house yes… yes |
| Napoleoni: | However you had left your clothes on the chair at the entrance, no? Did you get dressed when you entered the bathroom? |
| Guede: | I had put back on my Adidas top and the yellow hooded sweater was on the chair it was placed like this as if he had placed it like this… on the chair |
| Pros. Mignini: | Oh, then?… You hear the scream. |
| Guede: | I hear the scream. |
| Pros. Mignini: | You hear the scream, you leave [the bathroom] |
| Guede: | I leave as quick as I can… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And you go towards Meredith’s bedroom |
| Guede: | I go towards Meredith’s bedroom |
| Pros. Mignini: | And you find this person that is your height, more or less. |
| Guede: | A little smaller |
| Pros. Mignini: | A little smaller |
| Guede: | A little smaller, can I state something? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | I also find it difficult to describe one particular thing, when this person quickly turned round and tried, tried to hit me in the passage there’s a transparent window, it’s not actually a window I wouldn’t know, basically it’s a window that overlooks the balcony if I’m not mistaken, there’s a balcony and there is a … a clothes horse with some clothes on it… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | Instinctively I took hold of this thing and threw it to the ground and instinctively I threw it and then further along there is a sort of bookcase, a bookcase |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | Also there I instinctively I caused some books to fall |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh, eh |
| Guede: | All this was… |
| Pros. Mignini: | You have spoken of this, of this meeting that you had in that house, did you speak of it when you were in Germany? |
| Guede: | I spoke about it with a black guy… because of course in the end I tell you I found myself in a state of confusion in Germany and I don’t have anybody… I didn’t have, mine wasn’t a way of escaping because I don’t have anybody in Germany, I don’t speak German and in the end I ended up in Stuttgart and this black guy… |
| Pros. Mignini: | What’s his name? |
| Guede: | Well his name is Kevin Kennet and he lives in Stuttgart |
| Pros. Mignini: | Kevin Kennet, but is he American? |
| Guede: | No, no he is, and I have to be honest, he’s African but I wouldn’t know… I mean… from where… from Zaire |
| Pros. Mignini: | And what did you say to him? |
| Guede: | Eh basically I was… I’d been there a few days without anybody and even I don’t know how I managed to end up in Stuttgart, I saw some black people, I went up to them and I said, speaking always in English, lucky for me they spoke English. I started talking saying where I’d come from until in the end I opened up to this person. Basically it was the first person I opened up to and I told him what had happened, what had happened to me… And at that point that same guy, basically he made me realize, and he said to me, then he took me to his house, he gave me something to eat, he takes me to his house and I was at his house after which… |
| Pros. Mignini: | I’m interested in what you said to him? |
| Guede: | No, I told him exactly what had happened to me. |
| Pros. Mignini: | And who you had seen? |
| Attorney: | Did you also tell him everything in detail or just in general? |
| Guede: | What I said to this guy? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen… |
| Guede: | I’ll respond however… I remember what I said to this guy, as I have to answer the question of the Prosecutor, the things that I said to this guy are those. |
| Napoleoni: | To Kennet? |
| Guede: | Yes and the things that I said to the guy for example about the voice that I heard that I don’t think I said it like this… I spoke really… |
| Pros. Mignini: | What did you say to him? |
| Napoleoni: | About the person in the account of what happened to me that evening and I’m sincere I said to this guy that there was this girl… that… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Amanda |
| Attorney: | That there was who? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Amanda… |
| Napoleoni: | And what else did you tell him? |
| Guede: | I told him that I encountered this guy that I don’t know. |
| Napoleoni: | When did you tell him about this guy? |
| Pros. Mignini: | About this guy |
| Guede: | That I wouldn’t know… that I came up against this guy and that I didn’t see him very well |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen but when you saw Sollecito… |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Had you seen him other times, did it seem a new face to you? |
| Guede: | When I saw him for the first time I saw him when I arrived in Italy, it was the first time that I knew of this… that he existed. |
| Pros. Mignini: | But what you… the guy you saw that night |
| Guede: | I tell you… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Could it have been Sollecito? |
| Guede: | I tell you sincerely I have been influenced because I have seen the images, the photos… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh I know and so? |
| Guede: | The only thing I say is, the thing that made an impression on me that I was able to garner of this person that evening are his cheekbones… however I have been influenced from seeing the photos, the images… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen another thing… the… he said “dirty black” |
| Guede: | He’s black… the voice said it’s a black man… as if someone… well but then these are my deductions, as if somebody had asked him a question |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, yes I understand |
| Guede: | He said it’s a black man, I’ve found a negro… however I prefer to say black man. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Guilty man found |
| Guede: | Found a black man, found the guilty one… let’s go… and at that point I heard these footsteps |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen, you’ve been in Perugia for a very long time, no? Do you know… |
| Guede: | I’ve been in Perugia |
| Pros. Mignini: | Do you know the Perugia dialect? |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | Meaning? |
| Guede: | I also speak it |
| Pros. Mignini: | You also speak it, as a rule of thumb, your impression, this person, this guy, when he said these things, did he seem to be from Perugia, or not? |
| Guede: | No no absolutely not. |
| Pros. Mignini: | He wasn’t from Perugia. |
| Guede: | No he wasn’t from Perugia. |
| Pros. Mignini: | He was Italian but not from Perugia |
| Guede: | Not from Perugia |
| Pros. Mignini: | And are you able to distinguish, more or less, the various Italian dialects? |
| Guede: | Eh, this is a bit difficult |
| Pros. Mignini: | Was he from the north? |
| Guede: | No, no I’ve been to the north, absolutely not, to the point where when I was in Lecco, in Milano, at a certain point I spoke… it’s like I spoke the Milanese dialect. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, you adapted to the… |
| Guede: | However, absolutely not… |
| Pros. Mignini: | So he wasn’t from Perugia, he wasn’t from the North |
| Guede: | No absolutely not |
| Pros. Mignini: | He could have been from the south |
| Guede: | I wouldn’t be able to say. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood, he wasn’t from Perugia and he certainly wasn’t from the north |
| Guede: | Absolutely not |
| Attorney: | Neither from north because he’s been to Lecco and so… |
| Guede: | Because anyway I took on that dialect |
| Pros. Mignini: | When, so he then goes away and there is somebody else outside… |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | No? Then you look out of Filomena’s window and you see this silhouette of… |
| Napoleoni: | That was in one piece |
| Pros. Mignini: | That was in one piece, it wasn’t broken… |
| Napoleoni: | It wasn’t broken |
| Guede: | The window, the shutters… |
| Profazio: | Just to understand, as you entered you had three rooms on your left, the last of which is Meredith’s, the one in between is Amanda’s, and then there is the first one, from which of these rooms, from which of these three rooms was there this window? |
| Guede: | Entering the house? |
| Profazio: | Yes |
| Guede: | In the first |
| Profazio: | Located on the left or the right? |
| Guede: | On the left, in the first |
| Profazio: | Perfect |
| Guede: | I deduce that it’s that window, or rather the room where I entered after there had been this altercation is the same one, that from outside, is visible when entering from the gate, because that evening the shutters were open. |
| Pros. Mignini: | The shutters were all open? |
| Napoleoni: | And the glass, Rudy? |
| Pros. Mignini: | The glass? |
| Guede: | When I was with Meredith it was all… |
| Pros. Mignini: | All in one-piece… oh and so you saw this female silhouette… did you open the windows? |
| Guede: | No, the glass was transparent |
| Pros. Mignini: | You saw this, this female silhouette then… who was this female silhouette? |
| Guede: | I believe that I recognized the figure of Amanda Knox in that silhouette. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Amanda Knox |
| Guede: | So it seems to me… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Was she also a match for height? |
| Guede: | Approximately… yes… because it was about 1 meter 65. |
| Pros. Mignini: | How was she dressed this one…? |
| Guede: | Look, this is the problem I have because if I had seen a person from this distance it would have been easier to describe her but I saw a person that was going away and the light there however wasn’t great… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Dark or light, at least? |
| Guede: | Eh… grey… grey… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Grey, how was her hair? What hairstyle did she have? |
| Guede: | Her hair was down |
| Pros. Mignini: | Down… a little on the long side? |
| Guede: | Yes they arrived to about… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Perfect, that’s enough. Ah, another thing you said that Amanda, that Meredith told you she was drugged up. |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Pros. Mignini: | But did she tell you which drugs she was using? |
| Guede: | Not that she was drugged up, she complained |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes “that druggie”. |
| Guede: | She said “that druggie” |
| Pros. Mignini: | Right but did she tell you, or if you knew, what type of drugs she used? |
| Guede: | When she complained she didn’t say which kind of drugs… however when I was the first time in the house of the Italian guys below those same guys told me, literally, she’s a big smoker and that she would come down often to their house and they smoked up together. |
| Napoleoni: | Only joints? |
| Guede: | Yes only joints |
| Napoleoni: | That you know of |
| Guede: | Then for anything else no… as far as I know… |
| Napoleoni: | Is there anything you wish to add of your own accord? |
| Guede: | If I can volunteer something, me, well, I’ve heard so many things said, I wanted to clarify one thing, when talking of a boyfriend, but I’m not concerned about other people, I’m only concerned about Meredith, I’ve read about a person who says he was going out with Meredith… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Guede: | This is just my… it could be a deduction of mine. That evening talking with Meredith in the house I asked her if she had a boyfriend and Meredith told me no, that she had someone special in England in her country. I didn’t ask if she had a boyfriend but I deduced that this person was her boyfriend… And so hearing things said that Meredith was with someone and I tell you honestly, I mean… |
| Pros. Mignini: | This is a perception of yours |
| Guede: | This is my perception |
| Pros. Mignini: | One last thing that I wanted to know… when you were in Germany you spoke with Benedetti, no? |
| Guede: | With Giacomo Benedetti |
| Pros. Mignini: | With Giacomo, what did you say to him? |
| Guede: | It was a bit of a strange period because from the beginning I contacted Giacomo, we got in touch writing via chat, after which I saw that anyway it was a slow way of talking with Giacomo, chatting, and so we went on Skype, we went on Skype and I talked with him after which other than talking on Skype with Giacomo, I was in this telephone booth… like those you find in Perugia. |
| Paciotti: | Call center… |
| Guede: | That are called Call centers, after I talked with Giacomo also on the telephone and basically I was without money and I begged this man in the Call Center to let me talk with Giacomo who would send me money via Western Union that I would leave with him and Giacomo, we talked. Giacomo asked me if… there in that moment I was also a bit confused because Giacomo anyway was asking me questions and I think he asked me about everything and there in that moment maybe the answers I gave him weren’t answers you know, they were given hastily and also a bit affected by the situation. I think he asked me who I was with that evening, if I was alone with Meredith, if there was… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Did you describe the individual that you saw? |
| Guede: | No, because Giacomo, I remember a question that Giacomo asked me. Giacomo asked me if it had been Amanda who had killed Meredith and I said no, because while he was asking these questions, in reliving that evening I only saw this figure, I didn’t see… |
| Attorney: | That male |
| Guede: | That male and I didn’t see the female because then he asked me if it had been Amanda and I said no, she has nothing to do with it… because I had as a… reliving it this figure that anyway I had in my head was Meredith… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Listen how was this knife… how long was it? |
| Guede: | This knife I must say in all honesty, in those moments I didn’t see… |
| Pros. Mignini: | But was it a kitchen knife? |
| Guede: | A knife that I described as a scalpel, because even just touching me it cut me… |
| Pros. Mignini: | But was it pointed and cutting? |
| Guede: | Do you mean pointed? |
| Pros. Mignini: | Eh |
| Guede: | I wouldn’t know, I believe so because I tell you, it was really sharp. |
| Napoleoni: | What did you say to Giacomo Benedetti about the alleged murderer? |
| Guede: | I described to Giacomo how he looked that evening, I described him |
| Napoleoni: | How he was dressed? |
| Guede: | If I’d seen what he had on, Giacomo asked me if I’d seen what color his hair was |
| Napoleoni: | And what color was it? |
| Guede: | Eh I was able to … the color with the reflection of the lights went from a brown color towards blonde… it was that… it was neither blonde nor brown. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood, understood. |
| Guede: | And then I said to Giacomo, the first thing I said also to Giacomo was… because I repeat the state that I was in that evening even now I still think I wrote “af” on the wall, it was the first thing I said to Giacomo “look I wrote something on the wall…” I don’t know if you saw it above the bedside table |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, yes |
| Guede: | Then Giacomo asked me many questions… |
| Attorney: | Also because in a chat we tend to write without thinking of the previous responses, we write… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Well ok |
| Attorney: | I wanted to ask something |
| Pros. Mignini: | He hasn’t finished his response… |
| Napoleoni: | You didn’t finish telling us… |
| Guede: | I said to Giacomo that he had this hood, this hat with this red stripe on it… |
| Pros. Mignini: | And how was he dressed? |
| Guede: | I saw, I mean it made an impression on me that it was all black and I tell you that I recognized, I saw a logo in which I recognized the logo of Napajiri, this stayed with me anyway, I saw this little logo… |
| Pros. Mignini: | On the back? |
| Guede: | Yes, that stayed with me anyway |
| Pros. Mignini: | Of? |
| Guede: | Napapjiri… Napapjiri… a little island, the island with Napapjiri written on it and this stayed with me |
| Pros. Mignini: | Then he had jeans |
| Guede: | Eh I didn’t take notice of this… |
| Profazio: | Let’s go back to Kevin Kennett |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Profazio: | Where does he live? |
| Guede: | Kevin Kennett is a guy that I met at Stuttgart Station, at the train station, he lives in Stuttgart and he lives a fair distance from where I met him because he took me to his house and here the route is all a bit difficult for me. However for example if I had a photo of the place I would be able to say where he lives. |
| Profazio: | Did he speak English? |
| Guede: | Yes yes he spoke English |
| Profazio: | Does he live there all the time? |
| Guede: | Yes, he lives there all the time with his brother |
| Profazio: | Does he work? |
| Guede: | Yes he is a chef and he told me everything about himself, he’s a chef |
| Profazio: | Is he married? |
| Guede: | No, he’s a guy of my age |
| Profazio: | Did he tell you where he worked as a chef, in pizzeria, restaurant… or a pub? |
| Guede: | No, in a proper restaurant… in a proper restaurant |
| Profazio: | Indian, African, Italian? |
| Guede: | No I think… |
| Profazio: | We have to try and be… |
| Guede: | Because he told me… |
| Profazio: | If you remember, you tell me “I remember” if not you tell me “I don’t remember” |
| Guede: | I can tell you this because he told me that he was a chef and then if you ask me which type of restaurant I wouldn’t know if Italian or African… however I think it’s a German restaurant… like saying if I work in a restaurant it’s Italian… if I’m a chef… and he took me to his house and I also stayed at his house. |
| Profazio: | Was his house in a large condominium? Small…? |
| Guede: | In a large condominium |
| Profazio: | On which floor was his home? |
| Guede: | He was on the second floor… and he lived with his brother |
| Profazio: | And with his mother, you said |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Profazio: | There were three of them living there |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Profazio: | Did he give you his telephone number or anything? |
| Guede: | Eh yes in the beginning he gave me his number and after however I lost that number… I lost it because, but I have to explain to you how things went… because basically I met… when I met him it then it became late and he took me to his house |
| Profazio: | Ok wait a moment because otherwise we’ll lose the thread. Let’s go back a second on this point if for you it’s not a problem. When did you meet him the first time? The day? |
| Guede: | Do you want to know the date? |
| Profazio: | Yes |
| Guede: | I don’t remember |
| Profazio: | You don’t remember, it was an evening if I’m not mistaken |
| Guede: | In the afternoon then it became evening, I was… I don’t know how I ended up there, I ended up in Stuttgart … I arrived at the train station, he was with a group of friends and then I spoke with him and he took me to his house, however it was the evening and he, Kevin Kennett, lives near to a center that in Germany is used for youngsters with problems and he said to me “look for you to remain in Germany, as you don’t have documents, I’ll take you to this center. In that center you have to say this, this and this, the things he told me to say to be able to remain in Germany and at that point I started saying what he had suggested to me. And then in this center they told me, you have to go to this office to ask for asylum, to remain in Germany and he took me to this place, he gave me his number, he had already given me his number and the Stuttgart Police came and they took me, they took me to the Police station, their Police station and they took me back to this center after they had carried out some checks. They took my finger prints and everything and once back in this center to ask for political asylum they asked me where I was from, how come you are here and at that point… |
| Profazio: | [incomprehensible] had you contacted Kevin? |
| Guede: | No, I never called him |
| Profazio: | You mean you never called Kevin? |
| Guede: | No, he gave me his number but I never called him and after that, the note that I had, that had his number written on a small note, I lost it… otherwise he had given me his number. |
| Profazio: | Listen your ups and downs at the beginning of November, before your arrest, had you only recounted them to Kevin or had you recounted them also to other people? |
| Guede: | You’re asking if I recounted them only to Kevin first, only to Kevin and then later to Giacomo |
| Profazio: | To Giacomo only on Skype or on… |
| Guede: | By telephone… |
| Profazio: | Also by telephone |
| Guede: | That evening then I called him… |
| Profazio: | All on the same day |
| Guede: | With Giacomo yes, because I contacted Giacomo later on… I don’t know if I’ve explained myself… and that evening I speak with Giacomo |
| Profazio: | Did you not speak with any of your Perugian friends that you had the next day? |
| Guede: | No, no with nobody and with none of my Perugian friends, I spoke with nobody… for when I was in Germany this… |
| Profazio: | With who? |
| Guede: | Well the evening that I spoke with Giacomo, having finished speaking with Giacomo anyway I asked the gentleman in the end I gave him my code for Western Union post, I left seeing as I had to give this man 50 Euros that he would receive he gave me 10 Euros and with these 10 Euros in coins I called Gabriele Mancini. Gabriele Mancini. In the house in Piscille. |
| Profazio: | Who would be the son of your teacher |
| Guede: | Of the teacher and I called… that evening I was in touch with Giacomo and Gabriele |
| Profazio: | What did you recount to him? |
| Guede: | To Gabriele? |
| Profazio: | Yes |
| Guede: | I told him that I had spoken with Giacomo, he asked me where I was, I have to say that oddly it was like I only trusted Giacomo, even though I know Gabriele… when I started talking with him, it took a while for me to tell him that I was in Germany because it was as if I only trusted in Giacomo |
| Profazio: | But did you recount anything to Raffaele how things had … |
| Guede: | To Gabriele |
| Profazio: | Sorry to Gabriele… |
| Guede: | No, however I called and he asked me where I was and I told him in Germany and he asked me “where in Germany?” and I said in Dusseldorf and I told him that I had spoken with Giacomo and that I was about to come back and he asked me basically if I had money for the train and I said “no, look I’m coming back but they could stop me” he told me not to worry if the Police were to stop me to not react, meaning in the sense to go, to stay calm… |
| Profazio: | About this matter, about what had happened? |
| Guede: | About this matter I think he had already spoken with Giacomo… something like that, if he knew, I don’t know, however I didn’t speak with him directly about it |
| Profazio: | Ok… |
| Guede: | I want to return to the first of November, I am certain that I was with Alex after I left my house |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes, yes |
| Guede: | Being with Alex, Philip [incomprehensible]… the first, in the state I was in, in those conditions I’ve a bit of difficulty for example I can’t even say at what time exactly I met Alex |
| Pros. Mignini: | You said with Crudo no? |
| Guede: | Crudo… however I am.. I have this… |
| Pros. Mignini: | This feeling |
| Guede: | This feeling to have been with him and to have been… then Alex left and to have been with [incomprehensible] Philip |
| Pros. Mignini: | [incomprehensible] he would be the Israeli? |
| Guede: | The Israeli and I was with them wherever they went |
| Attorney: | And the American? |
| Guede: | There was no American that evening |
| Pros. Mignini: | But where does this MJ (phonetic) reside? |
| Guede: | I don’t know… in the center however I wouldn’t know |
| Profazio: | He is the boyfriend |
| Guede: | He is Sofia’s boyfriend… of Alex’s sister… however that evening there was me, Nicolas, this American guy, the only American that was there, me, Nicolas, Philips and MJ (phonetic) and I was with them and we went to Velvet’s after which… |
| Attorney: | What condition were you in? Afterwards… so… a robot |
| Napoleoni: | The evening of first November? |
| Attorney: | You were like a robot… |
| Guede: | I got in Philips’ car and we went to Velvet’s, we returned to the center |
| Napoleoni: | Well ok, you are certain of this? |
| Guede: | I was with them… yes I can also say that I’m certain |
| Attorney: | [incomprehensible] you know what can happen when in the state you were in… I tell you because… for everything that you’ve said until now, there is something which… given that it’s such a dramatic thing eh, if there is something for which you have some perplexity any more to the Prosecutor you don’t need to say it… If instead everything you said is ok |
| Guede: | I’m… I’m certain that I was with MJ, Philip and Nicolas that evening… earlier Alex was also there then he returned to his house |
| Pros. Mignini: | Understood |
| Guede: | After that we four stayed together and after that in Philip’s car we… Philip was driving, we arrived in the area of Velvet’s… and after that we returned to Morlacchi in that area there and then I went home… |
| Profazio: | Let’s return a moment to when Meredith complains about the missing money and you say that she entered Amanda’s bedroom |
| Guede: | Amanda’s, yes |
| Profazio: | You say it’s Amanda’s bedroom because you know that bedroom or because she said it was her room? |
| Guede: | Because she said “let me go and see something” and when she entered that bedroom I’m sure… |
| Profazio: | Well ok anyway can you tell me where this room was located? The entrance… |
| Guede: | The entrance |
| Profazio: | Meredith’s at the end… before that there are another two rooms |
| Guede: | Can I describe it? |
| Profazio: | Yes |
| Guede: | Entrance, if we start from the bathroom which is next to Meredith’s bedroom, Meredith’s bedroom, a bedroom, there is a bedroom and that is Amanda’s bedroom |
| Profazio: | Perfect and so she entered and she touched the… what did she touch? |
| Guede: | It’s not that she touched anything, she went there sure of herself. It’s as if she knew… she said “let me go and see something”. She opened a drawer… there was a desk against the wall, she opened a desk and there she saw, what, I don’t know. |
| Profazio: | She looked, she searched? She touched something? |
| Guede: | No she looked, it was very quick that… she said.. and I don’t know what she was looking for there… or what she could have and she became more certain that it was… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Meaning she got even more annoyed with Amanda |
| Guede: | Yes |
| Attorney: | I wanted to formalize a few requests Mr. Prosecutor together with my colleague, primarily because from what we formally conclude also from our consultant who is working with us, Attorney Biscotti for Rudy’s defense in conjunction with Attorney Gentile, we wish to formalize these requests. Given that we also don’t have specific information from our consultant who is working at the Scientific Police in Rome, we ask formally that that towel is analyzed, the one Rudy refers to that we identify in the photographs of the scene of the crime covered in blood. Given that Rudy informs us that that towel that he used, we ask that it is, if not already, because alongside this object we don’t see either markers nor letters nor anything else so we also imagine that they have not been analyzed, I produce, or better, I exhibit a photo of this towel, now I wouldn’t be able to identify it with the exact number but it’s the towel that you see below the duvet. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Can I see it? |
| Attorney: | Which is certainly one of the two towels, one of the two towels that Rudy says to have… |
| Profazio: | What checks would you like us to carry out? |
| Attorney: | We want to know if on there, there is Meredith’s blood |
| Profazio: | If there are Rudy’s fingerprints… |
| Attorney: | Seeing as he hurt himself many times, if there is also Rudy’s blood… I exhibit… |
| Pros. Mignini: | Produce |
| Attorney: | I exhibit because it’s already in the case files of the Prosecutor… today is 26 March 2008. Obviously we refer to this but we ask that all the towels are examined… all the towels… only because we don’t see… seeing as some objects are indicated with letters and collected we fear that it hasn’t been collected. In order to avoid requesting a “Incidente Probatorio” [Special evidence pretrial hearing], for this formal request by the defense I urge that the Prosecutor, the Prosecutor’s office, takes an active part in requesting the analysis of this thing. It could be that it has already been examined… similarly we ask that the Prosecutor’s office, just because we’ve had a lot of difficulty… difficulty in obtaining, seeing as Rudy told us that in Germany there were photos taken of his hands because he told us “I have some cuts”… eh these photos have been taken, there was a fax sent to us from Germany which confirms to us that there are these photos, so we ask that the Prosecutor acquires them to avoid that we have to do it which becomes more complicated, we have tried to do it of course, we have also said that it has to be done through Judge Matteini’s office… it doesn’t matter how, as long as it is done. We formally give some ideas, there is for us, it becomes complicated…when this witness goes down, goes down the steps he says he saw a person who was complaining about his car, so he was certainly there. Seeing as we have nothing to fear, nothing to fear, surely that person can have seen something of use. Seeing as the black man may have seen him pass by, not only is it possible that Rudy doesn’t remember to have passed this person on the steps, but he may have seen other things. He was at the scene of the crime… he was near the scene of the crime… so seeing as, I repeat we have nothing to fear, we request the Prosecutor’s office that it takes an active part in order to trace this person, and the tow truck that he called. |
| Guede: | I wanted to say something if I may. Well I’m immersed in a situation that I’d never have imagined to find myself in my life. It is something that is bigger than me, certainly, this is something I say voluntarily, I have blame because I could have called the ambulance, I could have gone in the street and screamed and called somebody. I say just one thing, if I were to do I don’t know how many years because I didn’t save the life of a person I will do it without problem, however I don’t see why I should even do one day of prison for the belief, or if the world can believe, that I have killed a person. And it’s for this that I, seeing as I’m immersed in a story that is too big for me, I’m willing because having heard certain people who are also my age, who are guys like me… well for me they have a soul, they have a brain and they have responsibilities, I’m available for any kind of confrontation with these people. Because I think I also deserve clarifications on certain assertions. |
| Napoleoni: | Do you have anything to add Rudy? Do you want to say anything else? |
| Guede: | No this is all I wanted to say |
| Pros. Mignini: | Ok |
| Attorney: | We reserve the right anyway to see the outcome of this interrogation of today |
| Pros. Mignini: | Yes |
| Attorney: | In order to validate Rudy’s statements, in the next few days we will deposit a diary where we will attach other documents known to us which are still not in the case files of the Prosecutor even if they are available on the Internet where some things are already indicated because they are written directly by Rudy when he was in Germany. |
| Pros. Mignini: | Can the deposition end? |
| Attorney: | Yes, closed at 14:05 |